What Happened to the 10 and 16 Gauges?
Most folks who play around with shotguns know that, back in the day, there were a lot more shotgun gauges available than there are now. These days the 12-gauge is riding tall in the saddle, with the 20-gauge doing duty as a gun for youths and the small-framed, and the old .410 bore (not gauge) finding some use among elite skeet shooters and kids learning the business.
What happened to those other gauges? As recently as the post WW2 years, the 10 and 16-gauge loads were still seeing plenty of use. The 16 still remains popular in Europe, at least in those localities where the peasantry are allowed to own fowling pieces. But Stateside? Those have mostly faded out, leaving the 12 and 20 holding the bag. The 24 and 32-gauge guns were never popular Stateside (although I just examined a lovely 32-gauge double in a New Jersey gun shop the other day) and the big 4 and 8-gauge guns were mostly used by market hunters, not sportsmen. The odd little 28 is still around, and new guns aren’t too hard to find, but like the .410 it’s mostly used on the skeet ranges and quail fields; unlike the .410 it’s not found much in youth-type guns.
But the highly useful 10 and 16s are not much in use these days. Why? First, let’s run through some background on shotguns.
What Do Shotgun Gauges Mean?
Gauge as measured in shotguns is an archaic measure of bore size. A shotgun’s gauge is defined as the number of pure lead balls, the bore size of the gun, that it takes to add up to one pound. For modern purposes, bore sizes for the several gauges are defined as:
- 10 gauge: .775
- 12 gauge: .729
- 16 gauge: .663
- 20 gauge: .615
- 28 gauge: .550
The .410 is the odd man out, being defined by the actual bore size. Interestingly, the .444 Marlin rifle cartridge was originally loosely based on the .410 brass shotgun case, and there are revolvers ostensibly chambered for the .45 Colt that will also chamber and fire 2 ½” .410 shells, which strikes me as a solution in desperate need of a problem; but, as my Grandpa used to say, every cat its own rat.
A recent (as in, post-WW2) development in shotgun loads is the addition of lengthened “magnum” hulls. The 3” 12-gauge was first, followed by the 3” 20-gauge, the 3 ½” 10-gauge and finally the 3 ½” 12-gauge Roman candles. The .410, originally a 2 ½” case, had a 3” version developed, while the 28 and 16 gauges never joined the fun, still being available only in 2 ¾” versions. This is significant for reasons we’ll go into in a bit.
Guns and Loads
This is where we run into one of the reasons that the 10-gauge faded out. The 10-gauge was mostly favored by waterfowlers, who generally are stationary in a blind and not hiking over hill and dale looking for birds like upland hunters. There’s a good reason for this; geese and even ducks are tough, heavily feathered birds who take some knocking down, and even the old 2 7/8” 10-gauge loads threw big charges of heavy shot idea for this task. But the guns made for the big 10 were mostly large, long, heavy doubles, some weighing as much as 10 pounds. In the late Seventies the 10 saw a bit of a renaissance with the introduction of the Ithaca Mag 10, and later Browning introduced a 10-gauge version of its BPS bottom-ejection pump-gun in 10-gauge. But both guns remained big, long and heavy; I’ve fired an Ithaca Mag 10 and it’s like swinging a telephone pole.
The introduction of the 3” magnum 12-gauge and, later, the 3 ½” sealed the fate of the big 10. Now a hunter after a variety of game could buy a 12-gauge light enough to tote in the upland game fields that would still handle heavy magnum loads suitable for waterfowl or turkey.
With this, the 10 has kind of faded into the sunset. You still see them in the hands of hardcore waterfowlers, and ammo is still readily available, but the big 10 is now strictly a niche market item. And that’s too bad, because a hardcore waterfowler would be hard pressed to find a better gun for big Canada honkers or fast, tough mallards than a 3 ½” 10-gauge shell throwing two ounces of bismuth shot. The Browning BPS-10 is still available factory-new, and there are plenty of Ithaca Mag 10s and its later development, the Remington SP-10, on the used gun market.
But the sweet 16? That’s a whole ‘nother thing to ponder.
Why? Because none of the niche market criticism of the 10-gauge applies to the 16. The 16 may well be the perfect happy medium in shotguns. It can be chambered in small-framed guns, as Browning did in the famous Sweet Sixteen version of the Auto-5; that fine gun put the 16-gauge shell in a gun using the small frame designed for the 20. I have one and it’s a joy to handle, almost a full pound light than its 12-gauge counterpart. Ditto for the 16-gauge Model 12 Winchester.
The 16, in a stiff field load, packs plenty of wallop for big ringnecks and sage grouse, while the light, handy 16-gauge guns are light and handy enough for grouse, quail and doves. My 16s are great for just those things; Mrs. Animal is a fan of the 16 as well and has two, a newer Citori White Lightning from a limited run in that chambering and a 1950s-vintage Ithaca 37. Up through roughly the late 1950s, plenty of American bird hunters agreed and the 16 remained popular.
So, what happened? Three things: The increasing popularity of trapshooting, the 12-gauge 3” magnum and the 20-gauge 3” magnum.
Trapshooting is and always has been a 12-gauge game. The 12’s bore is just enough larger than the 20 or 16 to toss a one-ounce load of 7 ½s in a nice, tight compact pattern with a short shot column, ideal for powdering clay birds. In light trap loads recoil isn’t an issue, and dedicated trap guns can be heavy enough to eliminate even that bit of kick. But more to the point, the increasing appearance of trap ranges at American gun clubs led to a lot of folks taking their field guns out to the trap range to get some practice in, and the nature of trap shooting over the much more predictable skeet made it better practice for wing shooting – at least, until the advent of sporting clays.
But ammo – that’s where the bite really came, and when it came, it came from two directions. And in this case, it wasn’t so much the new 3” mags in 12 and 20-gauge as the 16’s sin of omission in not doing the same.
Following the advent of the 3” magnums in both 12 and 20-gauge, shooters who may previously have chosen a 16 as a great gun-of-all-trades no longer had as much incentive to do so. The 12 was suddenly now much more versatile, coming close to rivaling the 10 as a duck/goose/turkey gun while retaining utility that the 10 lacked for upland game, a trend continued by the later lengthening of the 12-gauge chamber to 3 ½”. For a shooter looking for one gun for all work, the 12 was now the clear choice; I’ve said as much myself, that if a person can only afford one gun, period, end of story, then that person should go forth and buy a 12-gauge pump shotgun.
Moving down the size spectrum, young shooters and those with small frames now had greater reason to choose the 20 over the 16. Both rounds were available in light, small-frame guns but suddenly the 20 opened up with a much wider variety of ammo available, including some loads that approached the level of older 12-gauge 2 ¾” field loads.
Meanwhile, the 16 languished in its 2 ¾” hull length, and sales of guns and shells declined. In the early 1970s, Winchester dropped production of its excellent AA trap loads in 16 gauge, and thus one of the last sources of high-quality low-brass 16-gauge hulls dried up; nowadays Winchester, Remington and Federal are still loading 16-gauge rounds but mostly in field versions with cheap, crappy promotional ammo dominating. Fiocchi still loads a variety of 16-gauge loads as the round is still more popular in Europe than here in the States, so the 16-gauge fan still has some options, but non-toxic loads for waterfowl are pretty limited, and new guns are not much in evidence.
The Upside
Yes, there’s an upside to all this, especially if you’re a 16-gauge fan or are in the market for a big, powerful waterfowl-buster. What’s that upside? The market!
10- gauge and 16-gauge guns aren’t in much demand these days. There are some exceptions; the Browning Sweet Sixteen Auto-5, especially Belgian guns, still commands a premium price, mostly because of collectors (like me.) But Browning BPS-10s aren’t terribly expensive on the used gun market; Winchester Model 97s and Model 12s as well as Ithaca 37s and Remington 11s are readily available in 16-gauge versions and often at attractive prices.
And there’s hope, at least for the 16. The new, supposedly improved (and in my opinion, uglier) Browning Auto-Five is now available in a Sweet Sixteen version; the Browning Citori and the various CZ doubles are available in that gauge as well. Could we be seeing a minor renaissance in the best of all mid-range shotgun loads? Maybe. Time will tell.
The “Other Gauges”
Obscure gauges like the 24 and 32 were never popular in the United States. In the case of these oddballs, it’s not a matter of them fading out as much as that they never faded in in the first place. But could these in-betweeners be useful?
Sure. The aforementioned 32-gauge European double I examined the other day would make a sweet little item for hiking hills and swales for grouse. Fiocchi still loads 32-gauge shells, although loads are limited to a #6 field load and a lighter upland load with #8 shot; but this pretty little tiny-framed double with its graceful slim barrels and its lovely European walnut stock really belongs in the field, not languishing in some gun shop’s rack where it won’t likely move because of its odd chambering.
The 24, on the other hand, is one where I can’t really offer much information. As far as I’ve been able to determine the 24 isn’t loaded by anyone anymore, and I couldn’t tell you the last time I stumbled across a 24-gauge gun. While the 16 was left behind by advances in neighboring gauges, the 24 seems to have died a death of apathy.
In Conclusion…
Old shotguns are fun.
Now that I’m done belaboring the obvious: Just because a certain shotgun gauge is no longer popular doesn’t mean it’s not useful. Mrs. Animal and I have a lot of fun with our 16-gauge guns, and after our move to The Great Land, I may be in the market for a big 10 to bust tough northern geese for the table. I’d love for Winchester to bring back an AA trap load in 16-gauge, but then I’d love for someone to bring back the .25 Stevens rimfire again – or even bring out a nice new light lever gun in the .25-20. I probably won’t get any of those things, but the world’s got no shortage of windmills to tilt at.
If you have some extra bucks to indulge in a shooting addiction, don’t overlook the 16. The story of the oddball gauges is an interesting one and, given the changes in technology and markets, may have been inevitable, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t worth another look.
Great write up, I didn’t know 16 ga. existed
/stupid City boy…
I had never heard of the 24 or 32. I learned something today.
Thanks for writing the article.
Great article. I have a wee, folding-stock, single-shot that takes both the .410 and .45 Colt. My dad gave it to me when he came home from some Tampa gun show when I was 13. I’ve sent many a rattlesnake and nutria off to varmint heaven with it and although it is a spectacularly unhandy weapon (and I don’t think it cost more than $20), I wouldn’t get rid of it for anything.
Fascinating. I knew there were 20 gauges, but since I don’t do much fowling, I’ve always thought of a shotgun as primarily the bedroom home defense firearm and thus went with a 12 gauge cause that seems to be the default.
To me, a pistol is the bedroom home defense gun. My shotgun is purely recreational for breaking clays. Although, I do stock some OO & slugs, just in case of the zombie apocalypse…
12 gauge, in #4 birdshot so as to reduce penetration of interior walls, in a Mossberg 500 Mariner would have been my bedroom weapon answer for the last 30+ years but this new Shockwave 590 in 20 gauge makes a very strong argument. It is so easy to point and shoot with this thing.
Honestly, for home defense, I would think a 20 would be just as effective as a 12, and easier to handle.
Thank you for the read. I need to get back into trap and target shooting. I really enjoy it, but haven’t made time for it much in the last couple of years.
Fastest growing high school sport in MN. Most of Spawn 1’s pals were on the team.
I haven’t shot trap, skeet or sporting clays for years.
I took trap shooting in college to fulfill my phy-ed requirement. I loved it, but unfortunately haven’t done it since.
Great. Now I need more guns. Thanks a lot!
Now if someone were to load a rocket-propelled projectile into a 10-guage shell, how bad an encounter with the ATF broom will their backside have?
Asking for a friend?
Well, they already know that the projectile can’t be intentionally explosive, but what about rocket-boosted to keep gaining velocity after leaving the barrel?
Like this?
Only initially propelled from the barrel by the standard shotgun charge too.
There is a Niven story where a gyrojet was used as the murder weapon.
I always wanted a 10-gauge coach gun. Just for the cool and to knock down a wall occasionally.
As a small guy I’m not a fan of the recoil of the 10 gauge.
I’ve never shot a 16, but have fired all the others. My favorites were 12 and 20 depending on the need.
After moving to the northern part of the people’s republic of NJ I haven’t fired a shotgun in over 20 years.
What, you don’t want to move backwards with every pull of the trigger?
I prefer to think of it as the rest of the world was blasted forward.
He lets himself get kicked by mules for recreation
Didn’t Ithaca advertise the Mag-10 as the “Roadblocker”? The gun to stop a car with…or something like that.
They made a 20″ barreled version of the Mag-10 and yes, called it the Roadblocker. They didn’t sell many. Would be a hell of a doorknocker.
My first gun was given to me by my great grandfather when I was in 5th grade. It is a sweet Stevenson 16 gauge side by side. He purchased the gun in Italy shortly after WWI and brought it with him when he immigrated in the 1920’s and would use it every fall in southern Wisconsin. I still have it and use it once or twice each quail season in his memory.
The 16 is a very good field shotgun. Thanks for the article!
OT: I, like Raphael in the previous thread, want to say thank the Glibertarian Foundation, and the rest of you Glibs for being here and being so awesome.
This really is an amazing, special place. I appreciate all of you. It helps keep me sane in the heart of Progtopia, OR
Fuck off, Tulpa 😉
No, Tulpa, you fuck off. 🙂
Dammit Tulpa. Don’t get into an argument with one of your socks.
Fuck off, Tulpa.
Oh knock it off, Tulpae!
Isn’t that kind of the point of Tulpae sockinius?
Don’t sass me, Tulpa!
I find this gushing offensive.
Did you forget your gushing gloves?
I think you are a very special person, UCS. I’m glad you are here.
*braces for an HM image to show up shortly*
You know that you do not have to click on those.
I can’t help myself, but that doesn’t mean I can’t help others.
Not the ones he embeds in the comment!
OT but gun-related: Cody Wilson apprehended in Taiwan
I find all of this so tradgic. The guy was on Tom Woods recently and to use Tom’s words his stance and fearlessness in the face of government prosecution was nothing short of “heroic” (a term that is often over used but in this case it really seemed to apply). And now he’s served himself up on a silver platter with an apple in his mouth. While I knnow looking to individuals to function as paragons of liberty is a dumb pursuit anyway but still…..god damn
Play stupid games, wind stupid prizes.
Assuming he actually did anything they claim. I have been expecting them to find some sort of set up/entrapment to punish him for his defiance for quite some time now. Or maybe he really was that stupid, but who knows?
Honestly, the police affidavit doesn’t smell of a setup or entrapment to me. It was credible to me that the underage hooker was seeing a counselor (there are all kinds of “outreach” programs for “troubled youth”), that she told the counselor, and that the counselor told the cops. From there, her story was confirmed by security cameras.
Assuming its basically accurate, I think he really was just that stupid.
I wouldn’t be too quick to assume the trustworthiness of a police affidavit, but it could be legit.
It could have been “parallel construction” to hide a setup, but its facially plausible.
I think we’re all just wishing REALLY REALLY HARD that he wasn’t that stupid.
Except he probably was.
Mojeaux makes a good point.
I agree he was probably that stupid.
I also think if it had been some average dude, literally nothing would have happened.
Also, what is with Texas having 17 as AoC instead of the US standard 16?
Stupid and incredibly arrogant. Knowing that his enemies would be looking for any reason to destroy him and that any crime committed, for him, would result in the book being thrown at him, it’s seems arrogant beyond belief that he thought he could get away with that. I’m actually relieved that I didn’t pull the trigger on contributing to his legal defense fund.
Knee jerk reaction David Koresch actually being legal when he married 14 year old? ( ya know, before the FBI decided to murder all of them).
Assuming this was his attorney’s reaction…
1. Texas luuuuvs it some cops & laws.
B. 16 as standard? Fed AoC is actually 18, and there are actually more states with 18 as their Status age. Maybe “more common 16”.
@. I’d hazard a guess that plenty of state legislators here are/were fathers of daughters. “There oughtta be a law” is no less common around these parts. (See #1.)
This will be interesting to watch, since Taiwan doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the US. I assume they’ll give him back to keep DC happy.
He should use the Marrion Barry defense.
Thanks, Animal.
I know my gramps had a monster 10 ga. I’ll have to see where it ended up. Now I’d like to try one.
I’ve fired one before, a double barrel side by side. Damn things are heavy and have a pretty good kick, although it’s moderated by the weight of the gun.
Wonderful article. My first gun purchase larger than a .22 was my Winchester 1300 in 12ga. I’ve always really liked shotguns, but the 1300 is the only one I’ve owned; mostly just because I couldn’t justify getting one.
For many years now, I’ve had a box of 16ga shells I somehow ended up with after rooming with a guy who had one. I should probably buy a 16ga so i can get rid of them. ?
Great article! Keep ’em coming!
I want a 4 gauge derringer.
Who needs hands anyway…..
I have a .410 derringer specifically for rattlesnakes. Oddly, before I bought it I was killing 3 – 4 snakes a year; since I bought it I’ve only seen one.
Global Warming
/prog
Actually, I think its because a monster 6 footer moved in, and rattlesnakes are territorial, so he’s run them off.
#SnakeBrag
As for Me, i have a New England firearms single shot 12 gauge, with
Slugs
Fiachhi #2 shot
#7 birdshot
and some “non” lethal plastic rounds
As boring as it gets, but it’s fun……
A shotgun is never boring.
Compared to what you guys have, Mine’s simple, and yes it’s great fun,
I have a single-shot 12 form NEF’s predecessor, Harrington & Richardson. It’s their old Topper single with the barrel lopped off at 18″. Weighs about five pounds, kicks like a mule, and is great fun; it’s also my “truck gun.” Would be great for rabbits out the truck window if… you know… you wanted to do that.
My dad won (I think) an H&R 400* at some point before I was born, and I inherited it at the tender age of 3. I shot it on one occasion at 16, and, eventually sold it to another relative, who has since passed. No idea where it is now.
Whatever it takes…
Probably works better in the electrical sub thread, but since we’re talking different gauges…
Ahh, the 16 ga. I grew up with one of the old Higgins model 11 bolt action shotguns in 16. They kick like a 12, shoot like a 20. That is why the 16ga. died and despite the comeback will die again.
I wish I still had that gun. When my father gave me a Stevens single barrel in 20 that old 16 went in the closet and was never fired again. Then I got a little older and my grandfather gave me an Auto-5 in 12 and the same thing happened to the 20. *sigh*
There is a good reason the 12 is king today.
Another reason the 16 was popular was as a slug gun. A 12 gauge slug is brutal to shoot, even in 2 3/4. A 16 slug did not kick like a 12. A 20 slug might not take down a deer.
Nowadays, a 3″ 20g slug is almost as effective as a rifle, but you can use it in places that are shotgun only.
My Dad had a Stevens model 58 bolt action 16 gauge with a box magazine that he used to hunt deer in Wisconsin with.
I made a great rabbit gun with #6 (although it vaporized the quail that popped up on him when we hunting rabbit.
My experience with slug guns (from when I lived in southern WI, which is shotgun only for deer), is that accuracy is wildly variable, depending on both the barrel you have and the loads you feed it. I put a rifled slug barrel on my Remington 1100, and after trialing probably a half dozen different slugs, landed on one that would consistently print 3″ groups at 100 yards, which is rifle accuracy. Some of the others were more in the 18″ group range. And I knew several guys who could never get better than 12″ groups no matter what they fed their guns.
Slug barrels are relatively thin-walled compared to rifle barrels and I think they have looser tolerances for the internal diameter, so I’m guessing that leads to a lot more variability in performance from one to the next. I had both a good barrel (by pure luck) and found a good load for it.
My Mossberg 500 will put slugs close enough together at 50 yards to make a single hole, but after doing that once or twice, I find myself wanting to put it away for the year and ice my shoulder.
I did just buy a Phoenix Recoil Suppressing stock, but I haven’t tried it yet. It’s got good reviews.
*It* made a great rabbit gun…
I am not a gunsmith.
The 16 may well be the perfect happy medium in shotguns.
I’ve had the same thought. Its odd that calibers have proliferated in the handgun and rifle worlds, but contracted in the shotgun world.
Pater Dean used to do a crapload of quail hunting. He had .12 gauge shotguns from his duck hunting days, and an old .410 double that he inherited. He wound up using the .410 because it was more of a challenge (he and his hunting partner would limit out every single day of the long Texas season) and it left fewer pellets in the bird.
What does this have to do with 6.5 Creedmoor?
A who?
When I see ‘Creedmoor’ I think black powder
Aw yeah. I just got my new 6.5 Creedmoor AR-10 out to the range. Holy hell but that thing is a good shooter.
I have almost no interest in guns, but these articles are a great read. Thanks.
I have almost no interest in guns
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Yeah, I’m thinking he doth protest too much. Probably trying to deflect from a huge home arsenal, and should be checked up on.
/ATF off
His Nerf guns went down in a boat wreck.
I think he is required to have 1 years worth of ammo in his home arsenal, right?
The church is silent on the question of weaponry as part of one’s disaster preparations.
Don’t go ruining a good joke with “facts”.
*wink wink nudge nudge*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ona-RhLfRfc
The Google doodle is worth checking out today.
http://www.google.com
How the hell this got up here, I have no idea.
Probably best that way.
The Mormons down in Mexico aren’t silent.
They never have been. 😉
Mormons in general aren’t silent. Measure the decibels in the chapel just before sacrament meeting. If your meter doesn’t peg I’ll give you a dollar.
Are you up on that? I haven’t heard anything about it lately. I figured the Zetas, or whichever gang it was, figured out they had stirred up a hornets nest and backed off.
Oh. I meant specifically on the question of weaponry as a means of dealing with emergencies.
I meant that church leadership isn’t going to touch that subject, and the church does not and never will have an official stance on that.
Locally, however, there are occasionally suggestions on being prepared to hunt one’s own food. Long ago, a lady in my mother’s congregation would regularly talk about hunting and field dressing deer.
I’m going to have to go with “hadn’t heard about that.” I just looked it up.
I get the notion you aren’t familiar with what I was hinting at. A few years ago one of the Mormons in Mexico ran afoul of the local drug gang. I dont remember which gang or why, but the gang showed up at his house one night and killed him and maybe his wife as well. The whole Mormon community struck back and planted a dozen of the drug gang. When I heard about it there was still a lot of tension with the possibility of a shooting war but then time went by and I never heard anything else. I figured the dopers backed off as there was nothing for them to gain except dead gang members.
That place is something to see. It is like day and night. The Mormon community is all smooth roads, straight, well tended fences, orderly orchards and green fields, fat cattle and well built buildings. One inch outside of their land it is grey desert full of cactus, rattlesnake and mud huts.
No, I wasn’t. Thanks!
(Not surprised, though. Mormons have a history of fighting for what’s theirs, win or lose.)
Interesting. Like I say above, I hadn’t heard of it. Turns out they were Mitt Romney’s kin that got attacked (anti-crime leader and his brother were killed). Link
Huh, and apparently they had to bear arms illegally because surprise surprise surprise it’s rather difficult to do so legally in Mexico.
I think the cops were smart enough to keep their noses out of that.
I believe this is what you are looking for.
I always thought that a 10 ga. goose gun would be a good anti-drone weapon.
Nice article, Animal! I always enjoy your write-ups because you like a lot of the same guns and calibers that I do.
As a smaller-framed person I find the 20 ga. a bit heavy. My favorite shotgun is a Chas. Daly side by side in 20 ga. made in Japan. Designed for a smaller person, it fits me like a glove.
… Hobbit
fits me like a glove
Ookay . . . .
Ooops, meant that the 12 ga. was a bit heavy for me.
Shooting clays with my Mossberg 500 I have to start with the stock already in my armpit. With the Chas. Daly I can hold it at rest and still get to a shooting position quickly.
OT: Dress codes are racist. Because apparently black people can’t not wear things like white T-shirts and work boots.
White people never wear camo or ripped jeans.
Sounds more like, “Dress like respectable adults, people.”
Dress like respectable adults, people.
RACIST DOG WHISTLES!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!
+1 identity peddlers.
Don’t like the dress code? Stay out.
This
Is this your business? No? So why should anyone give a shit about what you want? If you don’t like their policies, simply don’t go there. How hard is that?
No, everyone must be made to bend the knee to the left’s agenda!
I’m not clicking the link, and I don’t know the particulars of this story, but is it even controversial to say that dress codes in bars are often times used to keep out either particular races or classes of people? Isn’t this up there with things everyone knows, like don’t allow girls to drink from open containers, don’t get in the trunk even if they are threatening you with a gun, and don’t eat yellow snow?
Classes, maybe, if the code required some kind of expensive attire. But people of any race can choose to meet a dress code if they want to patronize an establishment that has one.
is it even controversial to say that dress codes in bars are often times used to keep out either particular races or classes of people?
I think the more important part of that equation is “certain classes”. There’s a picture of the bar in the story. It’s a nice place. They don’t want a bunch of hoodlums in their bar. I doubt they’d appreciate white hoodlums either.
Bring back Goofus and Gallant.
Speaking of shotguns, lately (as in the past 5 years) I have been pining badly for one or two of these:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/786549091
I think that would be more fun than the law allows
Seems a bit pricey, but yeah, would be fun.
A bit pricey, yes. If I weren’t married….I would buy half a dozen, a thousand rounds of #7 and a thousand rounds of #4. Me, brother, son, two nephews and my father. That would make for an epic day, the kind you remember all of your life. What? A mere 12-15 thousand? *sigh*
Alas, I must behave like a responsible adult.
When they first came out I thought it was dumb, why spend 450 bucks on such an impractical gun? *bangs head on floor*
$450?! Damn!
No shit.
There is a reason Winchester closed their ’94 factory. They were selling way too low.
I was really hankering for a Winchester 1887 reproduction a few years ago, luckily the chatter on the various gun forums scared me off, evidentally it was never a great design even when it was well made and the chinese company manufacturing them at that time did not have a good reputation. Still a lever shotgun does seem like too much fun.
Check out the Chiappi versions. The Chinese ones aren’t worth the gunpowder it would take to blow them to hell.
That’s just a little bit more than the law will allow.
Goddamn you. Now that’s stuck in my head.
I wish I had a bazooka to shoot the fucker for thinking shit like this was all kosher. I wonder why none of these cunts figured they should have done this while Obama and his people pissed all over the Constitution and our freedoms with the very shit that is getting these assholes like Comey fired.
I don’t know, another NY Times story citing anonymous sources. I am reluctant to give it much credibility, although it does actually go against the NYT political agenda.
I bet this is all NYT and others doing damage control considering Trump’s declassification of the bullshit Russia collusion shit is eventually leave them all with egg on their faces, so they want some positive pieces so they can claim “NOT FAIR!” cause they were trying to be “objective”…
Sure. It’s not like President Pence’s first act of office wouldn’t have been to have Rosenstein taken away in chains.
I’m suspicious it’s a DNC/Fusion/Whoever planted story to try to get Rosenstein fired, so they can campaign on it for midterms. That appears to be their only strategy lately.
OT: PETA mad cause hot half nekked chick has lions in her photo shoot…
The nerve of this woman to have big pussy in her skanky promo!
In Soviet PETA, pussy eat you!
The Google doodle is worth checking out today.
http://www.google.com
You must really like Mr. Rogers.
I’m thinking about linking it a couple more times. Too, much, you think?
Nah, who doesn’t love Mr. Rogers!
I recently watched the Mr. Rogers documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor”. Toward the end was a clip of him comforting assumed-terrified kiddies after Robert Kennedy was shot.
DId anyone else who saw that movie think his message, voice and demeanor in that one were a bit … odd?
Hi, neighbor…
I am not giving them any clicks
note to self: if I’m ever charged with a crime and this chick shows up as my court-appointed attorney, do everything possible to break out of jail and disappear forever, because this woman would land me in the pokey for a long time. And shouldn’t a lawyer know better than this?
And I dare Brett Kavanaugh to either make his denial under oath or to withdraw.
He already has made a denial that would merit a perjury charge for lying to Congress. What’s your point?
And I dare Brett Kavanaugh to either make his denial under oath or to withdraw.
Is she willing to back up her dare by putting her law license on the table?
Ever try arguing with a woman?
“Nobody cares what you think, honey.”
Nice article Animal.
What are the Glibs’ thoughts on the mag-fed Mossbergs? I saw one looking back at me in the gun case last weekend. My wife said “Go ahead and buy it”, and like a fool I turned her down to further consider.
I’ve heard decent things about the SKO magfeds
http://www.stdgun.com/sko/
I wish you hadn’t showed me those…
“This item is not currently available for purchase. Please keep checking back for a release date.”
Such a tease (I was looking at the bullpup)
#metoo.
Still holding out for the Tavor bullpup high-capacity shotgun, though.
Nice, though seems like a lot could go wrong with that rotating magazine mechanism. Detachable box would seem a better choice. That said, I’ve no doubt Tavor engineering is top-notch.
Yeah, I’d want to handle one first to make sure I liked the mechanism, which is quite non-standard with kind of a reverse trigger that releases the rotating magazine.
Same here. Although I’ve always been suspicious about the weight and bulk of a 12 gauge magazine holding more than a handful or rounds. Seems like it could be unwieldy, and prone to coming off or getting knocked off.
I have a Saiga-12 and a bucket full of 10rd mags. If you put 8 rounds in (3 in #4 or 3in #00) the weight is negligible. The mag is in the center of the gun and it stays well balanced, easy to handle. It points well also. It is, shall we say, more than adequate firepower for your everyday needs.
Interesting. I’ve never handled one, so I was just guessing.
I swear to Allah, I thought I might buy one, maybe two, more guns before hanging out with you gun nuts.
Thanks for trying to talk me out of one Suthen…
No seriously that’s great to hear. I was concerned about that as well but sounds like balancing and weight are non-issues.
Only complaint I’ve heard on Saiga’s is if you mix heavy and light loads. Say your 3in 00 and then some skeet load. The gun won’t cycle with the light stuff.
I believe there is a adjustable plug for the gas system to be able fire the light loads, but it can damage the gun if you fire the heavy load without switching back.
I had that trouble. I leave it set for heavy loads and only shoot the mag buckshot. After all, that is what it is for. It is my zombie apocalypse gun. I have other guns for hunting and skeet.
Good points. I can’t have loaded firearms unsecured because of my kids. My solution has been to stash quick-access safes around the house with handguns. I’m really liking the idea of shotgun behind the bed though with a mag in the bedside safe.
Only pump-actions, right? I’d rather get the JM Pro semi-auto.
RIght for the Mossbergs. Scruffy linked to some comparably priced semi-autos.
The JM Pro looks nice.
Stay away. They don’t run.
The latest on the KavaDrama:
Not terrible. Shouldn’t have delayed by even a day. I’m disappointed they barred Kavanaugh during her testimony, but I understand why. The ball’s in her court and we should know soon whether she will testify or not. Personally I hope not, but I suspect her handlers will realized that they will get more base-inflamin’ mileage out of her appearance, so she’ll show.
I’d like to shoot one those big ones, the 4 or 8 ga., someday. On your recommendation, I don’t know if I’d limit myself to a pump action if I could only have one. My old Remington 12ga 1100 has been with me over 40 years with no trouble. I did manage to pick up an old 1920’s Whippet 20ga last year that I haven’t shot enough yet. Saving that one for my boys when they get a little bigger. Now I want to go shooting.
My old Remington 12ga 1100 has been with me over 40 years with no trouble.
Same here. Thousands of rounds have gone through it, and the only time it didn’t cycle was when I fucked up reassembly and didn’t set the doohicky gas thing right.
X 2, 1 in full choke, 1 in improved cylinder. A lot of ammo through in years gone by but not much lately. I had a Winc 1200, didn’t care for it.
Neat article Animal. I bought a Browning Gold semi-10 gauge in 1993, mainly to target large Canada geese. It was/is a neat gun, I even used it a great deal on mallards for several years. But I sorta got the goose killing thing out of my system after about 10-15 years and the gun has not got much use since then. It also started to have some reliability issues that I could not seem to fix. Recoil was not bad at all because the gun was gas-operated and weighed 10-1/2 pounds empty.
that was supposed to read semi-auto 10 gauge.
I sorta got the goose killing thing out of my system…
That could get you a narrowed gaze around here.
There’s always hope!
Don’t get me wrong, if the opportunity arises I will blaze away. I’m just not going to get up at 2AM, drive 160 miles on the highway, 10 miles in a boat, in the dark, in January, hunt all day, then reverse sequence and get home at 11 PM. Just not that mad at them any more.
The balls on this chick….
It’s like a crappy remake of Midnight Run.
Jonathan Mardukas: No, I don’t have to do better than that, because it’s the truth, I can’t fly: I suffer from aviaphobia.
Jack Walsh: What does that mean?
Jonathan Mardukas: It means I can’t fly. I also suffer from acrophobia and claustrophobia.
Jack Walsh: I’ll tell you what: if you don’t cooperate, you’re gonna suffer from “fistophobia”.
Dr. Ford has indicated to Republicans she doesn’t want to fly,
I’d love to know if she has ever flown for a vacation or to go to a conference. As far as I’m concerned, if you’ll get on a plane for anything, you’ll get your ass on a plane to go to DC and testify in a SCOTUS nomination hearing. Unless she just has a phobia that absolutely prevents her from flying, this is more pure quill bullshit.
For someone who supposedly fears for her life, driving cross-country seems like an odd choice to make.
I have a beautiful inter-war period drilling gun that I would love to take out to shoot. As far as I can tell, it is a 16 gauge double barrel shotgun with a 9×57 mauser rifle barrel tucked up underneath. Just need to find a gunsmith knowledgeable enough to tell me exactly what will fit in the gun and whether it is safe to shoot. Probably hasn’t been fired since before WWII…