I’m an animal lover. I have two very spoiled dogs and a long history of pet ownership ranging from reptiles, rodents, cats and farm animals. In high school I was a member of Future Farmers of America and showed poultry at the state fairs. My parents owned a hobby farm populated with cows, goats, pigs, geese, ducks, chickens and one very fat turkey hen named Tiger. I was showing Tiger at a fair and stopped for dinner at a sub shop. I got a turkey sandwich. As I ate my turkey sandwich looking at the turkey I had raised from an egg and had trained to follow me around, I heard a little voice say, “Isn’t that a little cruel to eat in front of your pet?” Being 17 or 18 at the time, I wasn’t exactly a deep thinker and excused the thought due to the fact that I had no relationship with the turkey on my sandwich.
The animals my family raised were never eaten by us. Sure, we sold them knowing they would be butchered, but our hands were clean. But as I grew older and started reflecting more on life, often while eating, I thought of the cows that I’d named and sold to market. I could never have killed one of them. I don’t think I could enjoy eating them even if someone else had butchered them, but here I am eating a hamburger. I’d outsourced my killing. Did that make me morally superior or inferior? I would never pay someone to do something I wasn’t willing to do myself, so how could I outsource my dirty work. I decided around 27 years old to stop eating beef because of the time I’d spent close to cows, learning how curious and gentle they can be, each with their own unique personality. Later I questioned what made cows special, other than the fact that I like them. We had a pot belly pig that liked a good scratch and treat. It is widely acknowledged pigs are intelligent animals, so pork fell off the menu.
The little voice said: “Why only beef and pork? Isn’t that an arbitrary line drawn by nothing but your feelings?”
My hypocrisy was glaring and I decided I would eat no mammals. An arbitrary line to be sure, but we are mammals ourselves and that seemed fair at the time. So another year goes by eating fish, poultry and the occasional reptile when I thought back to Tiger the turkey and remembered eating that sandwich and the little voice reminding me that I wouldn’t have killed any turkey. Well, I enjoy fishing and have no shellfish allergies so pescatarianism here I come. Finally I could honestly say that although I was hiring someone else to catch and provide my food, I would be willing to do it myself. I remained on that diet for several years and continued enjoying animals through zoos, aquariums, nature walks and television programs. I love nature shows. I find any animal fascinating. The way they live, breed and hunt. Watching lions hunt on tv as a child I always rooted for the gazelle to get away. As I got older I realized that the lion needs to eat too.
Little Voice: “Is the lion an immoral creature because it hunts?”
Only the most rabid PETA person would say yes. So if the lion is not immoral for hunting, why did I myself consider it immoral? Because I have agency? I can choose not to kill. I have empathy. I can image what other people and animals feel.
Little Voice: “What about the bass you love to catch?”
That, I told myself was different; they aren’t a higher animal.
Little Voice: “They fight for their lives. They want to live.”
Fine, fish off the menu.
Little Voice: “What about shellfish? They didn’t evolve those hard defensive shells for no reason.”
Fine, all animals off the menu. Are you happy now voice in my head?!? I’ll go vegetarian!
Little Voice: “Cows are slaves to dairy farmers.”
Fine, vegan! Good enough for you conscience?!?
Once again, I was watching a nature program, this time about wild tobacco plants. Tobacco plants produce natural pesticides to protect themselves from insects and when exposed to a new pest that is resistant to their chemical warfare, they evolve a new pesticides in a never ending evolution of defense. Not only do tobacco plants fight to live, they send a message to other tobacco plants with the design for the new pesticide. The plants have empathy, they shared their hard work so the species could survive.
Little Voice: “Seems like plants want to live as much as bass.”
Fruit? How about that brain? You got anything against fruit? I’ll go full Jainism! Not to offend any Jainist reading, but if you look into evolutionary history, that fruit isn’t meant for humans. The reason that ripe fruit changes color is to signal birds that it is ready for them, not some local primate. Prior to color vision development in primates, only birds could see the color change and the plants were offering a tasty snack to the birds in exchange for spreading seeds far and wide. If a monkey ate the fruit, the distribution would be limited, so plants, specifically peppers, developed capsaicin in an effort to discourage mammals from eating their precious seeds. Birds, fish and reptiles don’t have capsaicin receptors. This was a limited chemical attack aimed at mammals, including us.
Little Voice: “So animals don’t want us to eat them and plants don’t want us to eat them, what are you going to eat smart guy?”
I thought about it. Single cell organisms that use photosynthesis and have no defensive mechanism? They aren’t even harmless! I’m sure, little voice in my head you are familiar with the great oxygen event. You must, you know what I know! Those little light consuming bastards wiped all other life off the planet with poisonous oxygen! As I gained control of my addled mind, I began to think about how a small organism changed an entire planet and took my attention from the very small to the very large; our universe.
The universe is big place and the vast majority is empty and yet filled with danger; vacuums, extreme cold, radiation, black holes and burning balls of gas. The universe is racing to reach it lowest form of energy through constant expansion and organisms are fighting the flow of energy seeking its lowest state as the heat death of the universe approaches. Microbes to man are engaged in a Sisyphean challenge of rolling a rock up an energy hill, forever. In that context, living is fighting. It is the ultimate fight club with no holds barred. Our ancestors came down from the trees and developed efficient locomotion to pursue game; a unique shoulder design that allows for projectile weapons such as slings and arrows. We learned to use fire to make meat more digestible and with that calorie boost our brains grew to develop even more complex hunting schemes and weapons.
Little Voice: “Does that mean YOU can do whatever you please with no consideration for life?”
No. Humans are still cursed/gifted with sentience. We are not bound strictly by evolution. We can make choices about what and how we eat.
Little Voice: “Are animals nothing more than property?”
That is a debatable question for another post, but let us assume yes, animals are property AND in need of special consideration. Just because animals are a food source doesn’t mean we can’t still show empathy. With these revelations my diet expanded to include animals once again, but with a wider consciousness. I thought, what is the most ethical way to procure food? A shallow thinker may conclude a vegan diet hurts no animals. I already posited that plants may not want to be food, but conceding that point, growing vegetables isn’t harmless. The land where soybeans and kale are grown had to be cleared and the native animals displaced. After the animals and non-commercial plants are eradicated, the land needs constant protections from animals trying to eat the crops and plants invading the inviting soil. A clear battle line is marked at the edge of the farm and pesticides must be applied which kill not only pest but other harmless insects.
The veggie farm is just another arena in the fight club of life. Cattle ranches and poultry farms have the same issues but with added ethical considerations of living conditions for the animals. Buying cage free and free range is an option but still the animals aren’t wild and the land still managed. Commercial fishing has it own set of issues such as long net vessels catch the target fish for market, but also thousands of fish with no food value.
Little Voice: “There ought to be a law!”
There oughtn’t, I counter. Everything comes with a price, including ethical farming, fishing and ranching. I choose to pay extra for what I consider to be the more ethical methods, but not everyone has room in the budget to make those same choices or has the same set of values as I do.
Little Voice: “Clearly hunting is the most cruel. Everyone knows that.”
Not so fast my imaginary friend. Recreational hunting is limited to only certain times of the year and subject to bag limits for native animals; on private land you can target invasive species year round. In both cases, the land is left in a natural state so all non-game animals and plants can live without molestation. Only a few of the game species are harvested so the majority is left to thrive and the sacrificed few aren’t wasted by responsible hunters, since the meat is eaten and the hides turned into trophies. Sport fishing is the cousin of hunting, where limits are set and only a sustainable number of animals taken during certain seasons. Hunting and fishing are the most honest ways to procure meat in my opinion. The hunted have a chance for escape and ethical hunters give fair chase to the animal. The cow has no chance for life beyond the ranch and may even see the rancher as a friend who provides food, until led to the abattoir.
After years of self reflection and deep though, I have made peace with the little voice in my head. I try to eat sustainable fish, free range/cruelty free animals and this year I plan to buy a lifetime hunting/fishing license for the state of Florida, so I can supplement my diet with what I consider the most ethical meat source. I would grow my own vegetables too, but it turns out I don’t have much of a green thumb or patience for weeding. How is any of this of interest to libertarians? Libertarianism is a governing philosophy, not a moral code. Where the debate comes into play is how government regulates use of public lands for hunting, seas for fishing, animal cruelty laws for ranching and regulation of herbicides/pesticides/GMO for farming.
As libertarians, we can debate how heavy the regulatory hand should be. No FDA? I’m listening. No FWC? I think they provide a valuable service of ensuring native species aren’t over hunted on public lands. A better solution would be selling public lands to private conservation groups and have private regulation. Mandate cruelty free food? This is where my standards for myself and the law come into conflict. I chose a diet that I believe to be ethical, but as a libertarian I would never force others to make that same choice. If enough people would choose to pay the price difference the market will provide cruelty free alternatives. As the market grows, prices should come down. In the end, it is up to each individual to make peace with that little voice in their head.
“The reason that ripe fruit changes color is to signal birds that it is ready for them, not some local primate.”
Right turn, Clyde.
Well said.
I’m going to eat a Deep Dish Pizza with Pineapple toppings, there’s an argument,
Fuck Ethics, I want Meat!
“showed poultry at the state fairs”
Since you called it poultry…. you’re on the right side of history.
Thanks for readings. I trimmed as much as I could while maintaining a somewhat coherent point. Big thanks to my friend Ayesha for editing this for me and always thanks to the founders for giving us a place to share our thoughts.
It was poultry in motion.
Oh no… puns. *ducks*
*calls foul*
You guys are a bunch of turkeys.
Christ, I wouldn’t have said anything if I knew you were gonna brood.
What are we quacking about now?
Chicken.
Is this some kinda hen-party ?
Get the flock outta here with that, you!
I knew you’d get your feathers ruffled over that one…
“poultry”
He was talking specifically about his cock.
“Did that make me morally superior or inferior?”
Neither. It’s a lateral move.
Either it’s ok to eat animals, or it isn’t. Doesn’t matter who does the wet work.
That’s my whole point. If you aren’t willing to kill is it okay to pay someone else to do it. I may not like doing my yard work l, but I’m willing to do it, so it makes it okay to hire out.
Yes. Just like I gave the small game i hunted to someone who took it and ate it.
I am willing to do it, but… less. Just like yard work.
The abundance of meat in this country is because of affluence.
The abundance of vegetarians in this country… also because of affluence. People can afford to not eat meat.
Absolutely. I have a link to the price difference in free range vs traditional meat. If you have a family of 6 food because a huge expense. Moral first you feed your family. In a sense, morals/ethics are for people that can afford them. Ask Alfred Doolittle.
I’ve thought a lot about the affordability of being moral.
I’ve thought about this and I hate to admit, under the right circumstances I would steal, probably even kill to survive. It’s not moral, but it’s what I would do.
To feed, save, or avenge my children, yes, I would, without hesitation or guilt.
Dayum. Mormons is mutherfuckin’ gangsta.
http://intrawebnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/r-money-mitt-romney-binders-fulla-women.jpeg
I don’t think I’m representative. LOL
Well, he talked to the animals….
That was Dr. Doolittle, not Alfred P. Doolittle.
(Yes, I know, and it wasn’t the guy who bombed Tokyo either.)
Note to self: When in doubt, assume sarcasm and/or jokery and/or punnery.
In your defense, Ted usually isn’t funny
Get thee to a punnery, go. Farewell. Or, if thou wilt needs marry, marry a fool, for wise men know well enough what monsters you make of them. To a punnery, go, and quickly too.
Shake that speare.
Oh, behave!
*winks*
https://youtu.be/UneL2KO20nQ
I ? steak. And pork, and chicken. Fish i can live without.
The voices in my head don’t influence my diet.
Pst: the voice is an analogy for the conscience.
I know…but I’m 1 drink away from sleepy time.
I enjoyed your article. ?
Holy shit, FM. Way to tackle one of the most complex human challenges all at once. And with a Judge Nap barrage of questions. Well done.
I can only speak for myself, of course
I’ve gone through phases of pretty much everything, food-wise. I did not grow up on a farm but still had plenty of family who did. Their attitude toward the animals was interesting. They loved them and treated them well, but knew that eventually they would eat them.
I have fished and hunted since I was little. I have killed a lot of animals in my life, but interestingly enough, I almost never do any more. I can’t remember the last time I kept a fish and I’ve not shot a bird for years. I have absolutely no qualms about it – but I just don’t wan’t to any more.
Your article though makes me wonder if that’s a cop out. I had a great uncle, Scottish by birth, Canadian by residence, gentle badass by nature. He went to England to fly for the RAF in WWII. Good pilot who became a senior pilot for Air Canada when he got back from the war. When he retired he bought a big place in the country and decided he would raise sheep (Scottish, you know). Of course he named them all and by the time they were ready for slaughter, he couldn’t do it. Instead of castigating him, the other farmers took his sheep and took care of them. The next year, we enjoyed one of his sheep. He figured out that yes, he loved his animals, but theirs was a specific purpose.
It kind of makes me want to start hunting again.
Great article.
Thank you for taking the time to read it.
That’s pretty much how I feel about children.
It comes down to them versus me; so screw them little bastards!
Sure would be cheaper…
Is there a fine Chianti and fava beans involved?
Does the census bureau hire children?
Human children take too long to breed and raise to ever be food for any but the richest among us.
*Polishes monocle…
“What, exactly, is your point, my good man?”
“decided he would raise sheep (Scottish, you know)”
Wink wink
Nudge nudge.
*pours another dram*
Say no more
That’s why the cliffs of Scotland are so popular with shepherds. Get a sheep right up to the edge, and you’ll get some enthusiastic pushback.
Is she a goer? Eh? Eh?
Great article.
Seconded, except now I have to rewrite the crap submission I banged out and thought was oh so clever before I read this, thanks FM, way to raise the bar. Not to mention making me feel guilty about the steak and sauteed portobello mushrooms with garlic and chives I ate tonight. Okay, the first part is true but I have no conscience so the guilt bit was hyperbole.
Thanks. I eat everything except long pig and if given consent and the situation dire, I have no doubt I would eat people.
I’m a monster. I love hunting. Nothing excites me more than the prospect of shooting up an entire Disney movie set.
Seriously, I get such an adrenaline rush hunting that I can’t get enough of it. There are some types of hunting that I don’t do voluntarily (waterfowl hunting for instance), but hunting upland game over good dogs has to be about the best feeling in the world.
One of the other things I like about it so much is the camaraderie of the hunt. Especially since my sons have started hunting too. Being out in the field with them is great. Especially on hunts with them and my father. The stories that get told and the new stories that are made are great.
Watching the boys go from cubs who are allowed to tag along, progress to young men who have earned full rights in the hunting party is really special. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I was allowed to tag along with my father and his buddies on hunts.
I get sad when I see how few kids are getting into hunting now. What a great tradition that they are missing out on.
You’re apparently suffering from primal instincts and toxic masculinity. I suggest attending a woke university near you, they can cure you.
When the oldest boy and I were touring NDSU a few years ago, we asked about storing guns on campus so he could hunt up there.
I nearly had him married off by the end of the tour. One grandpa and another father were both interested in the possibility of having a son in law who hunted and that their daughters had been bringing home losers who didn’t hunt.
I’m guessing Tundra’s kid out in CO is also not getting the most woke University education on hunting.
Heck bring the young girls hunting with you.
I’ve got three sisters, all of them went hunting with the old man. Two of them still do it regularly.
My middle sister would go on hunting dates before she remarried. In addition to the 8 year old boy, they take their 6 year old girls with them deer and duck hunting all the time.
My kid sister hunted some with us when she was younger. I have an aunt who has fantastic dogs who has done less “real” hunting because she is always working with her dog for field trials.
My own daughter can shoot, but doesn’t want to do any hunting. She’d be more than welcome to come if she wanted to.
Hunting needs to get any kids they can get their hands on if we don’t want it to be a lost tradition.
Obama claims he’s a hunter, maybe invite him over for a hunt.
You know he is going to be the guy who always says “I’ll drive down to the end of the tree row and post. You guys walk it.”
He strikes me as the guy who never walks the tree row himself or takes his turn walking through the thick shit to kick a bird up.
Worst, he probably would bring Biden along and no one would ever get any sleep with him firing his shotgun into the air any time he heard a sound at night.
Obama says all kinds of things that are equally doubtful.
Truly
The bummer of living in a state that is the perfect environment for agriculture is that darn near every square inch of land was homesteaded. I like hunting but not enough to want to spend 40k-250k to get my own private spot I can kick people out of.
Unless I move further out west where ‘public lands’ for hunting are larger than a postage stamp, I doubt I’ll be able to ever get my girl and boy out. Got a few years though so who knows.
For you jimbo, from last season. It was his first.
https://imgur.com/ZJ4BGuU
Awesome! I’m sure that you were the very model of a proud papa.
My son is bigger, but his buck was smaller.
*I am legally obligated to tell you that the wound you see in that pic is an exit wound caused by a piece of the bullet that broke on a rib and bounced out that way. He made a nice shot on it. (my son insists on this legalese because he thinks that it makes him look like a bad shot)
Nice. And tell your son, sure. I believe ya.
“It is widely acknowledged pigs are intelligent animals, so pork fell off the menu.”
I don’t eat pork. And started for the same reason. I’ll still eat pulpo though.
And for several years I was vegetarian.
Octopus will inherit the earth after the next major comet strike.
Wait a fucking minute. You just gave me a lechon recipe a week ago.
That doesn’t mean that I never ate pork, or don’t know how to cook it.
By sharing that recipe, you now bear future responsibility for most of the pork I eat.
You were going to eat it anyway. Now you’re just eating it better.
Anyway, traditionally, “Cuban wedding pork” is usually made with a whole porker around 100 – 300 lbs., not a suckling pig, because it needs to feed a large crowd who just sat through a long ceremony. It is said it should be tender enough that guests can stick a small plate into its side and scoop out a serving without using a knife.
When I was a vegetarian, I often cooked meat for other people I didn’t eat myself.
All well and good, but where’s the beef?
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Ranches
“This ranch, owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, spreads over the three central Florida counties of Osceola, Orange, and Brevard. Covering almost 300,000 acres (1,200 km2) of land,[3][5] 90 ranchers and their families live on the ranch. The ranch maintains 44,000 head of beef cattle.[3][6] It is a for profit operation and is not a normal part of the humanitarian efforts of the LDS Church. Gordon B. Hinckley, former president of the church has said, “We have felt that good farms, over a long period, represent a safe investment where the assets of the Church may be preserved and enhanced, while at the same time they are available as an agricultural resource to feed people should there come a time of need.”[7]”
Enough with the euphemisms!
Very nice article, FM.
Thank you.
Good article, it really looks like you’ve had to really think about this a lot.
I have a tendency to over analyze. I’m sure it’s a common trait among libertarians/anarchist.
And that’s okay, I think these days not enough people over analyze let alone regularly analyze.
Here hold my beer and watch this!
Fine, vegan! Good enough for you conscience?!?
I hope with this revelation you turned in your blue jacket. You don’t see FFA kids showing their soy bean plants at the fair.
Seriously though, I could care less what a person wants to eat and or how they reach their decision, just don’t push it on me because I know cows are dumb as dog shit and they taste good. As to hunting, the main reason hunting seasons exist is to control populations. At least in N American anyway. Conservationists who are actually hunters have always been the best ones to regulate this and not environmentalist bureaucrats.
Great piece Florida Man
Thank you.
I know cows are dumb as dog shit and they taste good.
If we didn’t eat cows, there wouldn’t be any.
The resurgence of Buffalo in the late 20th century is solely due to farming.
“A cow would kill and eat you if he got the chance.”
“My god! that cow’s tasted human blood!”
Cows are more dangerous than sharks.
But it is OK because they are just killing tractor pull loving rubes.
The main driving force keeping the large game species of Africa around are huge amount of money being paid by well to do hunters willing to fork over the money to hunt them.
If you are barely scratching out a living farming a plot of land and some big animal comes around and eats it all up, you aren’t going to like it very much.
In countries where hunting is allowed, you go over to the local safari promoter and tell them about the big bull elephant in your back yard and when the rich hunter shoot him they usually gift you all the meat and give out a cash bonus too.
In countries here hunting is banned, some fat bastard in the city tells you that if you try to get rid of the elephant, you will be put in jail.
Go figure which situation leads to more game animals. Kenya has banned elephant hunting forever and for some reason their herd never seems to get bigger. The natives there have learned the basics of the 3 S’s: Shoot, shovel and shut up.
That sounds like an awful lot of shoveling.
I still remember when the Murikan shitlord killed that lion with a name over in Africa. So some of our woke media decided it was a good idea to go over there and interview some people in a local village near where the lion was killed. It didn’t turn out like they thought. One guys says something like ‘It’s lion. A lion ate 2 of my family. Why should I care about a lion? The more that are killed, the better’. Hmm, I guess they weren’t suffering from first world problems.
Here’s one question I don’t think vegans and vegetarians have explored much, or if they have, they haven’t shared their thoughts with me:
How much is each animal life worth? I can easily eat a whole chicken in one sitting; maybe more. For a family of 5, I roast 2 chickens for dinner.
It would take me almost a year to eat a single cow. Maybe more, if I’m making stock with the bones, making sausage from the offal, etc etc.
If I order a single hamburger, isn’t my responsibility for the death of that cow somewhat less than my responsibility for the death of a whole chicken that I eat?
My knowledge if Buddahism is quite small, but I believe that is the Buddist position.
If I drop a Bomb that kills 1000, but saves 300,000,000 it that Moral?
Oof utilitarianism
If the thousand are all in Washington DC, then absolutely!
Seconded.
Without getting into the stupidity of these trolly dilemma questions, you can only be responsible for your own actions, not the second or third order consequences over which you have no control or perfect knowledge of, so yeah killing 1000 people is immoral, unless they all people who play spoons from the audience at concerts.
The philosophical argument Jus ad Bellam, Jus in Bello can lead to some strange outcome.
The question “Is the war just, and is how you fight it just?”
So, if you fired a V2 rocket at London and saved 300M Germans from firebombing, what is the answer?
I think you might have transposed the numbers.
Every sperm is sacred.
I can wear anything I want on my John Thomas… I can wear French ticklers if I want.
Never link to youtube when PornHub will do.
To clarify, the only explanation I’ve gotten is environmental, and I have no interest in religion.
Does the environmental argument involve how much a cow farts and how much a chicken farts? I would argue it is more economical to eat a chicken as it costs less in time and feed to get one to the size to eat it even though I prefer beef over chicken. I am also unencumbered by any feelings that eating either is immoral. They are animals, we are animals. If you are a hog farmer and have a heart attack in the pen feeding them and fall to the ground and die the fuckers are going to eat you. Cows or chickens not so much because the lack the teeth for it.
A chicken would eat the fuck out of you, just like your house cat.
Neither are nearly as effective as pen full of hogs.
First person to insert the obvious Simpsons reference here gets a free 6-pack of their favorite beer on me.
I did futurama in the article. Not that anyone reads the links.
I did 5 minutes before you posted this.
I missed it. Name your beer and preferred method of delivery. Bonus 6 pack for beating me to the punch.
No worries.
Lt Fish already hit it a couple comments above.
The environmental argument against beef is primarily water consumption, waste treatment, land use, and antibiotic resistance.
I dont see how those arguements couldn’t be used against raising any other kind of domestic livestock.
Same argument, just less of it.
Except for the antibiotics. Cows are rumens, and we feed them corn. Corn is not grass, and…. well, you obviously know.
Chickens and pigs will eat anything. No antibiotics necessary.
I dont know about pigs, but chicken farmers absolutely feed antibiotics to their chickens.
Mealworms?
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/mealworms-the-other-other-other-white-meat/
I wish you luck in your future business endeavors.
Feeding the worms (meal or earth) directly to your chickens is a great way to turn that protein into tasty meat.
Water consumption? Please tell me these are people who drink almond milk.
A lot of the land that is used for cattle ranching couldn’t be farmed economically (or at all). Every year, I hunt in the badlands near Medora, ND. The wheat farmers till every acre they can right up till they get to the rough country. That is where cows are grazed. They can graze the grass off the side of a butte. No way a farmer could plant anything there.
One of the problems with urbanization and the loss of our agrarian roots is that too many people really have no idea of what “nature” is all about.
That’s why it’s aggravating to me that militant vegetarians pass around these little factoids about how much food could allegedly be produced if all of the world’s farmland were converted into grain and vegetables.
“If I order a single hamburger, isn’t my responsibility for the death of that cow somewhat less than my responsibility for the death of a whole chicken that I eat?”
I don’t think it’s something that can be quantified. At this point in my life, my not eating pork is more about my own discipline.
If I order a single hamburger, isn’t my responsibility for the death of that cow somewhat less than my responsibility for the death of a whole chicken that I eat?
Who is more responsible, Tim McVeigh or Nikolas Cruz?
I don’t have any Moral issues with Eating Meat, but a damn fine Article Sir!
Thanks Yusef. I hope your job situation works out.
Welcome, I got something cool in the works right now, I’ll keep Y’all posted.
I appreciate the Shout outs and encouragement from everyone ,
Thanks Again!
/Don’t kick Melon Dog when He down,
He get back up again,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZcPu5p2uxg&t=1s
I see what you did there.
Good luck.
Meh. He’s just venting.
Just going with the flow.
He’s run hot and cold before.
These threads sure go plenum of directions!
I did not notice what I did there,
/Derp
Hey, we’re conditioned!
Good luck, yusef!
“So animals don’t want us to eat them and plants don’t want us to eat them, what are you going to eat smart guy?”
At this point, I was hoping for the libertarian argument for cannibalism.
Perhaps some sort of Turing test for ability to survive on their own?
My opinion is if you can sign away the rights to your organs after death, you should be able to sell the meat to a willing buyer postmortem.
That’s a new idea for me to look into. As a donor I figured as long as they didn’t sell my ass to some perv I could be OK with it all being used. Even as food.
Pervs need love too!
And you’re done with it.
Like there isn’t anyone on this board that hasn’t engaged in cannibalism. This is 2018 and we live in Trump’s America ™. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I hunt, mostly deer these days, and there is always a bit of regret after the hunting part is over. This is after the boring and exhausting bit of stalking and the short thrill while getting ready to take the shot. Following that is the grim task of field dressing the animal – all of which is quite a bit more work than picking up some steaks from the grocery store and more of an emotional roller coaster.
I think there is some value to participating in this process if you eat meat and consider doing so ethical. Literally seeing how the sausage is made, so to speak, rather than pretending your hands are clean.
I
Anyone who has taken prey in the wild understands why so many societies had rituals to thank the animal gods for a successful hunt. Part of it was to assuage guilt.
That’s only because they didn’t have a garden or nice shrubberies in their yard. Otherwise, they would take pleasure in genociding the fuck out of deer with zero regret.
Yeah, when they gobbled up the $300 in tulips and other exotic shit my ex used to plant every spring, I didn’t get the bow and shoot them right off my deck cause I wanted to feel guilty…
Fair enough.
Reminds me of one morning, I was just sitting at my dining room table drinking my coffee. I heard a shot and it sounded close, so I walked out on my deck and looked around. I saw my neighbor to the west of me standing out on his deck, with what appeared to be (about 100 yards away) a rifle leaning on the deck railing near him. It was a Saturday morning, so I just decided to walk over there and chat. I didn’t see the dead deer lying near the back of his lawn until he pointed it out. He said ‘I just got sick of it, I’m just leaving that lie there for a while, maybe it might deter the others for a while’. And I said ‘I don’t know, I’m always shooting them with my pellet gun and I know that shit has to hurt, they run off, but they just come back later, I think your solution is better’. I’ve never been a hunter and so I just used to let hunters come out during season and hunt the woods behind the house. I got some good meat and jerky out of that deal also. Deer are over populated there because there are no natural predators left, too strict policy for hunting them, and they eat corn and get huge. They literally strip entire stands of forest and kill all the trees.
My wife went on a rampage after the first garden we put together, and from seed no less, was reduced to half the size by squirrels. I was still working on my degree, and I would look up from my textbook and see her pacing the property with my .22
Those mangey fuckers ate almost every Roma tomato off my plants for two years in a row. And by “ate”, I mean “ripped the tomato off just as it was starting to turn red, sunk their teeth into it, then threw it on the ground”.
I killed a few of them with a slingshot and 5/8″ steel pellets, but it didn’t have any effect. I had far better luck growing collard greens, which they don’t seem to recognize as food.
Me neither.
Collard greens are good. My wife makes a soup out of it called Caldo Verde. It’s delicious.
No effect? Zombie deer are a bitch. You need to use silver pellets next time.
Yes. I’ve long quit hunting with people who have no respect for game animals and their habitat and this includes some of my family unfortunately.
Every year my father swears that this will be his last year hunting deer. “15 minutes of intense excitement followed by 8 hours of drudgery.” is how he explains it.
But every year, he comes back out with the boys and I.
I get really bad adrenaline shakes after I shoot a deer. I remember when my son came out to the stand to just sit and see how everything worked and he laughed at how bad my hands were shaking afterwards.
I have never had “buck fever” though that caused me to miss a deer because of shaking or other brain farts. Always after.
Great article FM
True about what the affect of vegetarian and vegan eating has on critters – hadn’t thought of that angle. I wonder what the PETA types think would happen to all the cows, pigs and chickens if the got their way and eating meat was outlawed? A few thousand head of cattle would make pretty expensive pets.
My wife’s a Veggie and since I do all the cooking I am too (mostly). She doesn’t bother anyone about their meat eating and she’ll fall off the wagon when we go out to eat – pretty hard to get a vegetarian meal in Montana. She decided to go veggie when I was cooking chicken. We had about thirty at the time as lawn ornaments and egg suppliers. Some had names and they all got good Christian burials. Couldn’t resolve the two.
How do you know some of them weren’t Chickenwitzes or Henburgs or the like?
Not enough salt, and they still had some feathers.
What food is causing my co worker’s bad breath? I’m stifling my gag reflex this morning. Gross.
Pussy.
Natto?
Great minds!
Lol
Natto… Have you gone native enough to eat that for breakfast?
Natto this shit again. Straff probably breathes Natto. I’m still in the preparing my gut and senses every time I eat it stage.
Yeah and my tolerance for experimenting with food isn’t high at breakfast time.
Although I don’t mind miso soup at breakfast.
I can eat it, but not a fan.
No FWC? I think they provide a valuable service of ensuring native species aren’t over hunted on public lands”
the problem is public lands, not over hunting. Any privately owned game reserve is managed much better than any public land.
I also have a huge problem with the AGFC requiring me to have a license to fish on my land, in my pond, catching the fish that I have carefully managed over the years.
I agree. I would much prefer private game reserves.
“because of the time I’d spent close to cows, learning how curious and gentle they can be, each with their own unique personality.”
I agree to some extent, but some cows are just just plain assholes. I have a six month old bull right now that has been earmarked for slaughter this fall because of his churlish and destructive attitude. I was planning on keeping him to be a replacement for my current bull in a year or so to avoid inbreeding on my place, but he decided that he likes to tear up fences and be aggressive toward me and mine, so his new name is hamburger.
Only you can prevent inbreeding.
Is there any difference with the taste if you butcher a bull instead of a steer?
We have two bull calves that I was planning on selling, but have been floating the idea of turning one into steaks instead.
I understand a bull becomes tough and gamey. Castrating the bull before puberty keeps that from happening.
Any cow will become tough and gamey if allowed to live long enough. The best beef comes from cows around a year or so old and in the 750-900 lbs range.
In my experience, no.
The reason you geld a bull calf is behavioral. They are easier to handle if you kill their sex drive. I dont think it has any affect on the quality of the meat. Diet, age, and breed are the main factors in beef quality.
Thanks, that sounds good. These are 50% minature Jerseys, so not the best breed for beef. I’m still going to try to sell them this Fall. The sire is an awesome bull and it’d be shame to waste those genes. Steaks will now be the backup plan though.
Well if you’d quit waving that red cape around, maybe he’d chill out a bit.
Well written article. It is worth noting that the luxury of this mental conversation is far more viable today than 100 years ago (or 1000, etc). Human development/progress allows us the luxury of this sort of consideration, etc.
Of course, since I live alone, I consistently have the mental calculus of “cost-benefit analysis” and “opportunity cost” running in the back of my head – even more so because I can’t justify spending the time/effort to really try cooking anything fancy 98% of the time. I’m comfortable with cheap, tasty, and as healthy as I can get at the same time (mostly frozen because I hate throwing stuff out when it goes bad because I just don’t get to eating it in time).
There are so many adjacent issues I wanted to tackle, but I know this isn’t really the format for long form writing. I may do a follow up article about animals as property. I haven’t put much thought in it yet.
Yeah…I don’t even have a pet. I’ve given consideration to a turtle or snake or lizard that could go long stretches of time without attention (or feeding if I’m on travel) – but then I decide I just don’t care enough….
Well we don’t need you either…
*goes back to pondering hyperspace coil maintenance intervals*
I’d like to read a long form article on this topic
Okay. I’ve got another coffee article to write and then I’ll starting thinking about how I want to do the animals as property article.
I really enjoyed this article. I’ve thought about these questions before too. The problem that I’ve arrived at is that if I relied on hunting for a sizable portion of my meat consumption I’d either need more refrigerator storage or I’d have to go hunting more often. Because reducing my meat necessities is not an option. You don’t win friends with salad.
I have 2 large deep freezers. One chest type and one stand up that are worth every penny I paid for them.
Generators?
Oh, and what’s your address?
I have 5500 watt baldor generator. When I worked for that company, the discontinued their generator business and had an employee sale of their inventory. I bought a 3500 dollar generator for 1200 dollars. Honda engine, baldor generator. It works very well.
The same is true if you wanted to “ethically source” your vegetables. You’d be a farmer, which defeats the entire point of industrial society. An industrial society needs doctors, engineers, lawyers, and garbage men; not subsistence farmers.
Meh, specialization is for insects. Back when I was living in TX, I used the benefits of industrial society (an irrigation system and 2 day amazon shipping on fertilizers and pesticides) to maintain a fairly diverse vegetable garden for 2 hours a week of work. Sure, I couldn’t grow literally everything we ate, but I could’ve easily bartered our excesses for a bit of variety if we didn’t have the cash to just pay for it.
We live in such an affluent society that we can practically automate the growth of our food as long as we have a tenth of an acre of sunny land and 2 hours a week to pull weeds and string up vines.
We grew vegetables for a couple of summers. We just got too busy to keep up with it.
Hydroponics for tomatoes is damn near automated, once set up, and exceedingly interchangeable with another cash crop.
I’m not saying this out of jealousy, although I would love to be able to do what you did.
That said, it sounds like you had a hobby garden in a warm climate. That option is not available to most people.
We live in such an affluent society that we can practically automate the growth of our food as long as we have a tenth of an acre of sunny land and 2 hours a week to pull weeds and string up vines.
Put some heavy black plastic sheeting down first and you won’t even need 2 hours a week to pull weeds. Get an auger bit for your cordless drill and planting is a breeze. Your only time spent is harvesting.
Yeah, I feel no conflict because I prefer to outsource my meat procurement. It’s not a moral thing, it’s a convenience thing.
Opportunity cost.
There really is no way to survive without destroying some other life. It’s the nature of the universe. You can accept that or ignore it.
I think of it as a continuum of morality. There is the perfect and then there is reality. Even though I argue that hunting is the most moral, it is not practical for everyone. I don’t really care what other people eat, this was more an exercise in self reflection and I tried to provide some sources for what shaped my conclusion.
Interesting article. I’ve never had a quandary about eating meat. We won the dominance battle. I do, however, think we need to be ethical about how we treat our food supply. I have a problem with cows being herded into the slaughterhouse with a loader. I have a problem with chickens so packed into cages they can’t move. That said, I can afford to buy meat that fits my standards. What about the poor who do not have that flexibility?
I buy half a steer from a friend of mine every year. The way they were treated while he owned them shows in the final product. The first two he raised were named Porterhouse and Ribeye.
When I harvest birds, they have lived a free, open life with no cage in sight. And I apologize and thank every bird. Then I take it home a prepare it to be stored for eating. I only keep the fish I’m going to eat, everything else is back in the water in 20-30 seconds.
It’s a personal decision whether or not to eat meat, but I have no such dilemma.
I touched on the cost of “ethical meat” slightly in the article with a link to price differences. I’m definitely in the humans first camp. If you can afford free range and the cost difference is worth it, great. If you have a limited food budget and four kids to feed, I think price is more important. I do think if more people paid the premium for cage free or whatever the price gap would shrink.
What matters here is that modern farming and ranching practices are bringing both ends of the spectrum to the middle. Animals are being treated better and the cost associated is coming down. I think that’s a good thing that doesn’t require government intervention. The market dictates the changes.
100 percent agree. The last thing I want is government mandating “ethical meat”. Only cronies will get the deal of approval.
What matters here is that modern farming and ranching practices are bringing both ends of the spectrum to the middle. Animals are being treated better and the cost associated is coming down. I think that’s a good thing that doesn’t require government intervention. The market dictates the changes.
Squirrels can be tasty too.
The taste of vengeance?
I hate the little fuckers. They get into the garden and last winter, they chewed a hole in the subfloor and got into the cabin. They partied hard.
Red squirrels. Those little bastards punch way above their weight class.
Shoot on sight.
Tree rats are not that tasty, in my opinion, but they are fun as fuck to hunt.
If you pan fry and bread them enough, palatable… best used as part of a chili mélange (added with good meat).
I think I’m going to start killing them and barbecuing them in front of their friends. Then I’m going to put their skulls on poles all across my deck. Am I being clear that I don’t like them?
Squirrels are my favorite game to eat.
Cut them into 5 pieces (4 legs & saddle). Roll in flour and then brown in butter.
Put them in a roaster with about a cup of water and cook at 300 for about 2 hours (depending on how many you are cooking).
Fall off the bone tender and you can add corn starch to the drippings to make gravy.
“We have a strain of albinism in the local neighborhood squirrel population. This year there is a pure white youngster who has been hanging around in my apple tree.”
Damn, even the animal kingdom cannot escape the terror of white privilege. You just watch, whitey squirrel will soon have all the squirrels of color in chains.
Hyp,
The white squirrel isn’t the one you have to worry about. He’s just a worthless layabout that steals acorns from the others.
The one you have to worry about is the orange squirrel. He’s the one that will whip the white ones into a frenzy of enslavement, rapine and violence.
“The one you have to worry about is the orange squirrel.”
An orange squirrel. Well, that is very bad news indeed. First he’ll say outrageous things like there are good and bad squirrels among all squirrel colors. Then he’ll give the white squirrels with the most acorns even more acorns, while the squirrels of color starve . Then he’ll collude with the Russian squirrels to cement his power over all squirrels.
Fucking collusion with the Russian squirrels. Goddamn stole the election.
IT WAS THE BEAVER’S TURN TO WIN.
Most qualified rodent ever.
We have a strain of albinism in the local neighborhood squirrel population. This year there is a pure white youngster who has been hanging around in my apple tree.
My wife heard my boy and I arguing about who got to shoot it and she declared that that squirrel was off limits. We can shoot every brother and sister of that white bastard and she won’t care, but not him.
White privilege at its finest!
Thanks for the picture & tag line SP
You are most welcome. Thank you for contributing such personal thoughts for the community.
As I’ve said before numerous times, the diversity of ideas, opinions, and voices here is the thing I most value about the Glibertariat.
Goddammit.
I can’t believe I didn’t link this yet.
I was expecting this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10BMjxH-0Sg
Descendents week!
Great article Florida Man!
My own thoughts are that it is moral and right for humans to eat lesser animals, but to do so in a way that minimizes their suffering as much as possible. To take an extreme example, I think the Yulin dog festival in China is an embodiment of pure evil and it would make my week to find out the participants all died slowly from excruciating bone cancer.
We raise animals here, kill them, and eat them. I’ve only done chickens so far, but we plan on hogs and cows. The chicken leads a good life up until the moment its throat gets slit. I’ve seen people kill hogs by offering a bowl of beer soaked grains and then putting a .22 between the eyes while the pig is busy happily slupring the beer down. The pig is stunned and has no awareness of the knife slitting its throat. Keeping stress down at the time of death also makes the meat taste better. It’s a goal of ours to raise all of our own meat, but we still buy meat at the store until/if that day arrives.
I view hunting as one of the best possible sources of meat. The animal gets to live free up until the moment of the death, which is hopefully instant. It’s the ultimate version of free-range meat. I can’t understand why so many people who buy “organic” or “free-range” are against hunting.
It’s especially stupid when they say stuff like “why don’t you use your own teeth and nails to hunt”. It’s ignorant. Humans evolved to be ranged hunters and the better the weapon, the more likely a clean kill.
Yeah. I use my brain and tools to hunt. That’s the difference between us and the monkeys.
Ask them why they don’t wipe their ass with their hand and some leaves.
Ha! That would be indeed the best reply.
“I view hunting as one of the best possible sources of meat. The animal gets to live free up until the moment of the death, which is hopefully instant. It’s the ultimate version of free-range meat. I can’t understand why so many people who buy “organic” or “free-range” are against hunting.”
That makes no sense to me either.
I can relate. I seldom eat beef, but do eat turkey and chicken – on the grounds that I probably couldn’t kill a cow, but I could kill turkeys and chickens.
Also, occasionally bacon. Because bacon.
I bet you could kill a cow. You just have to want it bad enough.
Oh yeah – if it’s “kill the cow or starve”, no problem. I was talking about now, with all our convenient conveniences. Like most people, I come from a line of farm families, so I know I could nut up if I had to.
Also, I do have pastrami and pepperoni, although they make crappy knock-offs from turkey for both. But….meh.
Also, also, props FM
Thanks BP.
I seem to like all of it, beef, chicken, seafood of all types. I don’t like Turkey much though.
Oh and pork, bacon hell yes.
My grocer sells a cajun Turkey deli meat that is outstanding.
That said, when a whole Turkey is cooked, unless extraordinary measures are taken, the white meat is almost always too dry and needs gravy or something to make it palatable.
The only time I have cooked a whole Turkey and not had the breast meat turn out dry was 2 tha ksgivings ago.
I soaked the Turkey in a bath of ice and apple juice for 2 days before I inecting with apple juice and salt and then smoking at a low temp. That one turned out well, but it was an awful lot of prep work for a piece of meat.
Spatchcock.
Best turkey I ever had was one we smoked for a party but it was shitty cold and rainy and between the lack of attendance and the abundance of other food we never got to the bird so It sat all night in the closed Weber. The next day a handful of us showed up to watch the Browns lose and we tore into the cold day old out all night turkey. It looked like hell but was wonderful, I believe it was a 16lb bird and between 6 of us over the course of the afternoon, we picked the carcass clean.
That’s because you are doing it wrong. I never cooked a turkey where the breast meat was dry. What you do is salt and season the outside of the turkey, and cook it in a covered roasting pan with some liquid (eg. broth, stock, water) in the bottom of the pan below the rack, for half the estimated time at 325°F (about 20 minutes per pound). It will steam, forming a thick pellicle and look somewhat boiled. Then remove the lid and continue to roast it at 325°F. It will brown up nicely as the pellicle maillards, while it seals in the moisture. You don’t need to brine, marinate, spatchcock, or incessantly baste. Although the cavity should be stuffed or at least closed. The problem is many people cook turkeys backwards. They try to keep it from getting dry towards the end with aluminum foil or some shit. That’s like closing the barn door after the horse left. Keep it in the bird from the beginning, and the breast should be dripping with juice.
I neglected to say:
Nice article.
And not many people know about persistence hunting. I think I may have learned from PBS. No fur, upright running, good respiration.
thank you. Most people don’t realize how efficient humans are. It’s part of why we get fat.
This… A healthy human can run a lot further than a healthy deer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
Which isn’t really why we became the apex predator and dominant species on the planet. That’s because of ranged weapons. First spears, then bows, then firearms. No other species has a weapon to allow them to kill at a distance. I’m not an expert in these things, it just makes sense to me. Also add language and the ability to plan and hunt in packs.
There are other animals that are ranged hunters, but nothing like us.
https://youtu.be/KkY_mSwboMQ
Wow, that’s pretty cool. Deplorable gun nut shrimp.
“You are the varmit that shot my claw!”
Y mas
That’s another good one.
Only thing is, if that fish was a human, it would have already developed a spray that sprays a fully automatic machine gun like spay all over and kills everything within a large perimeter. And it would also be black and scary looking and have a thing that goes up. They have a long ways to go.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/mantis_shrimp
Those guys doing persistence hunting would be eternally grateful for a rifle.
Lack of weapons is exactly why persistence hunting even exists.
No FDA? Well, it’s meat so there’s that.
No technical definitions – I’m not on-board.
I’m not sure what you’re asking.
I enjoyed the article – USDA vs FDA is nit-picking.
Ah, missed it. Thanks for the correction.
Which one is in charge of nits?
Great article , FM.
There is more to a cow or pig or deer than the meat however. There are many uses of the hide, the bones, etc. When I was butchering my own deer the refuse fed the foxes and coyotes. Killing a creature is the destruction of one type but feeds many others. Nothing goes to waste in nature.
Can a non meat eater wear leather?
We have sort of pet deer running around my yard from time to time. My wife tells me not to shoot those at deer season time and I nod my head, as though I could tell the difference. I am living a lie. With a few exceptions I only shoot what I eat and that’s limited to deer. I shoot gophers, woodchucks, porcupines to protect my garden and trees. She is hell on the insect pests and deer that eat her flowers but she won’t eat venison.
Thanks for giving us something to think about and contemplate.
I think most vegans choose not to wear products made from animals or at least they should if they want to have consistent morals. Thanks for reading.
Great article Florida Man. I have never thought too deeply on this subject, so this article has got me thinking and wanting to learn more about my self and my relationship with my food.
I’ve hunted, fished, and killed my own food, but never farmed. I did meet one of the “hitters” at a local slaughter house. I don’t think I would be ok with doing that type of work as a 9-5. He informed me that they have to talk to shrinks every year to make sure they are not liking thier job too much or themselves too little due to thier job.
I’m still of the mindset that we are what we are as humans because of our ability to kill efficiently. I do think we should be respectful and kind to our food as possible.
That being said here is this for your listening pleasure.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wQynViAF6Ds
I’m honored that something I wrote gives you something to contemplate. Just don’t go too deep down the rabbit hole or you’ll start talking to yourself.
No chance of that. I was referring to buying meat when possible that has been treated right. I’ll start looking for more options in the future that what’s on sale.
I’ve had an incredibly bad day, so I haven’t been able to give you your due:
Thank you for writing this, because it’s interesting to me, but most importantly, thank you for writing something with broad appeal. We all eat, and the similarities stop there. It’s a great point of discussion, and I’m not looking for an echo chamber.
Also, coffee sucks. Red Bull or GTFO
You son of a … Actually the title for my next coffee article is “This coffee sucks”, but thats all I’ll say.
You’re doing an article on percolators?
You’ll have to read it to find out.
I’m not looking for an echo chamber either.
#metoo
And I appreciate that. You and I recently disagreed about the circumstances around suicide, and I have plenty of respect for you. I’d rather have a healthy debate than smell my own farts.
Now you’re dissing farts? What’s up with that?
They’re not up for discussion. You’ll take what you get and like it!
I haven’t had time to properly read it yet. Look forward to checking it out after work. Thx FM.
Gonna Ban the Orange Menace
Well, just do it then. Stop talking and do it, or you’re a giant fucking pussy.
I think he knows it would be a huge gift to the GOP.
Dorsey is a piece of shit.
The thing that gets me about these woke fucksticks is their unbelievable level of smugness. They just say ‘we’re not biased’ Yes, you are, you lying shits and everyone knows it. The left are really on their high horses right now. I’ve seen this show before, they’re going to get knocked off that high horse before long.
“We have to balance it with the context that it’s in,’ he said. ‘So my role is to ask questions and make sure we’re being impartial, and we’re upholding consistently our terms of service, including public interest.'”
“Twitter said Tuesday that no one is exempt from the threat of being banned for violating its rules governing abusive behavior – not even President Donald Trump.”
Bullshit. In practice Twitter is the opposite of impartial, and does not uphold their terms of service. They blue-checkmarked Sarah Jeong before she deleted her bigoted tweets. There is a vast multitude of people who make anti-white or anti-male tweets, and even incite violence, that do not get banned, or lose their verification.
Fruit? How about that brain? You got anything against fruit? I’ll go full Jainism! Not to offend any Jainist reading, but if you look into evolutionary history, that fruit isn’t meant for humans. The reason that ripe fruit changes color is to signal birds that it is ready for them, not some local primate. Prior to color vision development in primates, only birds could see the color change and the plants were offering a tasty snack to the birds in exchange for spreading seeds far and wide. If a monkey ate the fruit, the distribution would be limited, so plants, specifically peppers, developed capsaicin in an effort to discourage mammals from eating their precious seeds. Birds, fish and reptiles don’t have capsaicin receptors. This was a limited chemical attack aimed at mammals, including us.
I didnt quite get this far during my philosophical encounter with vegetarians, but I got to the point where it seemed that the only ethically consistent positons were to either eat everything or eat only fruits and “ethically harvested” grains. Lines in the sand like pain and intelligence strike me as the type of irrelevant milestone setting that plagues the abortion debate. And they also strike me as “similar to me” bias.
Are raccoons not tasty? I hate those things. Do this vegetarian a solid and eat those.
I have never heard of anyone ever eating a coon. And I spent a great deal of time in my early life being around the ‘I’ll eat anything that don’t eat me first’ crowd. Groundhog, sure, squirrel, sure, rabbits, hell yes, snakes, even snakes, raccoons, never. I don’t even know why.
Raccoons are omnivores. Generally speaking, wild critters that eat meat taste awful.
This raccoon tastes like garbage.
https://www.history.com/news/the-thanksgiving-raccoon-that-became-a-presidential-pet
Now o’possum, on the other hand…
I would try it, but damn do they look like they would taste bad.
Click my link. Raccoon was served at presidential banquets.
So, sorry for going off topic, but does anyone know of any good books about the Prague Spring? Looking for a nonfiction book in English that’s not super dry (something like an Anne Applebaum work or A People’s Tragedy if possible) If anyone knows of anything, it’d be greatly appreciated.
FWIW, I too am an animal lover. As a kid, I tamed a wild squirrel, gave it a name and was able to call it and have it climb up onto my shoulder and stay there while I rode my bike. Yeah, I had a lot of free time back then.
As a young adult I became a vegetarian due to my closeness to animals and after reading “Diet for a Small Planet” (the book is actually a bit of a crock, but I was gullible and there was no internet for me to fact-check it against at the time). I figured I was probably damaging my health a little by being a vegetarian, but probably not *a lot* and decided it was an OK trade. I didn’t, however, like to eat vegetables and I was more of a “pizzatarian.”
It’s past my bedtime, so I’ll skip a bunch of other history, but eventually, after successful surgery to treat non-weight-related sleep apnea (that predated my vegetarianism), I became interested in ultrarunning. I figured my vegetarian diet was probably holding me back and was real curious about what others were eating. I asked a local legend who was in his early sixties and still occassionally ran a fifty miler the week after he ran a hundred miler, the week after he ran a different hundred miler, “What do you eat?” Turns out, he was a vegan.
Time passed and then Scott Jurek published Eat & Run. I read it and decided to try veganism for two months. That was in early 2013. I may have been (and may still be) kidding myself, but I felt like I recovered from intense workouts (including hundred milers) quicker as a vegan and I have been a vegan ever since.
IOW, I think that *I* am more healthy and fit as a vegan than I was as a vegetarian and that I’m probably more healthy and fit than I’d be as an omnivore. I mention that I got into it due to my empathy for animals, not to try to shame omnivores, but to point out that I realize that I have a bias and I might be kidding myself. However, I’m a 55 year old who finishes a couple of endurance events a month (I have my first 200 miler, the Tahoe 200, on Friday), and if my veganism is holding me back, I don’t think it’s holding me back much.
OTOH, people are much more important than animals. If it were a choice between me and the cuddly bunny, or my family and the cuddly bunny, I’d have no qualms killing it. However, not only has that not been a choice I’ve had to make, these days it’s much easier for me to be vegan than it was for me to be vegetarian thirty five years ago. In fact, as a libertarian I point out that the free market will support niches that are much too small to influence an election.
Thank you for that thoughtful post. I believe libertarianism should be a large tent. What is legal and what is ethical is not always the same for everyone. If you are happy and healthy on your diet I think that is great and you don’t owe anyone an explanation for why you choose that lifestyle.
You can run 200 miles?!?!?!
I believe he did a post on it.
here it is
https://glibertarians.com/2018/06/ultrarunning-a-fucked-up-sport-for-fucked-up-people/?highlight=deadhead
Right?
He’s done 100 milers many times. The entire thing is mind boggling to me.
Depends on the meaning of the word “run”, but I believe I’ll complete the Tahoe 200 within the allotted 100 hours. Ridiculously bored people should be able to live track me.
How come I don’t have an little voice?
And does yours sound like Troy McClure?
Correction: a little voice.
Good article by the way.
Thanks. If you don’t have a little voice you are a psychopath and should stay away from animals and fire.
I have a little voice. He says “BURN BURN BURN ALL THE FURRY WOODLAND CREATURES!!!” and then laughs maniacally.
Do Tulpas only come out late at night?
We are all Tulpa, We are always here,
/Fuck off Tulpa!!!!
I was at work talking about exotic meats, and I mentioned goat, which caused this woman to fly off the handle. She thought it was somehow wrong to eat a goat, but all she did was argue by repeated assertion (“it’s a GOAT!” and “it’s just wrong!” and “you don’t do that!”)
I asked her why she’s giving me shit about eating a goat when she eats beef all the time. Her reply was, “But the amount of beef I eat in a year doesn’t add up to a whole cow!” Oh good, so the cow lived??
She was a dumbass.
I miss the Jamaican place. Their goat with rice and platains was great. Sadly, the rent got too high and they moved.
Curried goat is great.
Goat done right is very tasty. Again, most people draw arbitrary lines, which is fine, but recognize that your line is as arbitrary as anyone else and leave them alone.
I keep hearing that, but I hate it. I also hate lamb, the grossest tasting shit I have ever tasted.
You might be a super taster. I love lamb, my sister says it taste super gamey. YMMV
There’s something for me about the flavor and texture of lamb that just grosses me out, same for goat.
You must know some godawful cooks then. Lamb’s biggest problem is that it lacks flavor.
I exaggerate for emphesis. The polite euphemism is that the flavor is ‘subtle’ – aka easily drowned out.
I found ground lamb to be absolutely bangin’ when stewed in tomato sauce.
It also makes good kofta (Middle Eastern spiced meatball that is usually stewed in a gravy but sometimes grilled and eaten on a pita sandwich with veggies).
I won’t turn lamb down, I just tend to look at it in the store and then look over at the beef and go “that one’s cheaper, and it takes less work to get the flavor out.”
A lot of my culinary decisions get made by laziness and stinginess.
“You must know some godawful cooks then.”
I don’t think so. Every time I have tried it was at some very high end restaurants. And everyone else seemed to like it. It’s just me I guess, but I hate it.
I don’t like it either. But I’ll take it over almost anything that comes out of the sea that isn’t a fish.
I like shrimp, oysters, and crabs. If I could only choose 3 meats I could eat, it would definitely be fish, beef, and chicken. But if I’m not forced to choose, I like almost all of it (except lamb and goat). The only thing I absolutely refuse to eat that walks or crawls upon the earth, flies over it, or swims in the seas below, is fucking bugs. I am not eating no damn bugs, that is gross.
you don’t like shrimp? But, shrimp cocktail, scampi, grilled shrimp…
Hyp – I agree regarding bugs. I have a presumptive ‘no’ on invertibrates, with exceptions made on a case by case basis.
Nope. Revolting.
You cut me deep, Rhywun. Shrimp is one of my favorite foods.
Shrimp is one of my favorite foods, but I can sort of imagine why some people might not like it.
What I don’t understand at all is how some people don’t like scallops. They’re like tender little butterballs that came out of the ocean – no bones, no shells, just that rich, succulent meat… I don’t get it.
I’m going to guess that they had them so overcooked that they turned to rubber.
Now I want scallops in bacon…
When cooking shrimp, I typically just throw it in my wok that I have oiled down with butter. 1 minute, 2 at most. Same on the grill, once it turns from translucent to white, it’s done. Do not overcook shrimp, rubber is not good. Shrimp cooked right is wonderful. And never buy it pre-cooked, it will suck for sure.
@Hyperion:
That’s usually what I do, but with peanut or sesame oil. If I’m making a stir-fry, I’ll fry the shrimp, then take it out and set it aside in a bowl while I fry all the other ingredients. I’ll add it back in at the very end.
Oh well.
Lamb is awesome. I think it is probably the closest to game meat. I was at Costco today so I grabbed a rack of rib chops. It was great. Lamb stew, lamb curry, roast leg of lamb, ground lamb meatballs with mint, lamb kabobs….
Most of those preparations involve covering up the meat flavor with other sources, using the lack of distinction as a vehicle for the sauce/seasoning.
I got some ground goat at Jungle Jim’s International Market (amazing place to visit if you happen to be in the Fairfield, OH area) and made a burger out of it.
I wasn’t thrilled with it at first; I just added it to the list of animals I’ve eaten (yes, I literally have a .txt file of this on my computer) and forgot about it… But a few months later, I was struck with the insatiable craving for another goat burger. Now, I grab some goat every time I go there.
I wish they would have some chunks of stew meat that would be suitable for curry like UnCivilServant mentioned above, but they only had cubes of un-ground goat meat once, and it had a ton of gristle and bone in it. Not sure what cut that was supposed to be, but it wasn’t good.
Yard house does a lamb burger that is pretty tasty
Akira wrote: “I just added it to the list of animals I’ve eaten (yes, I literally have a .txt file of this on my computer) and forgot about it”
I just have a mental list of weird shit I have eaten:
Cow stomach (in China) two ways: Shezhuan style (very good) and 5 spice style (horrible)
Donkey (also in China)
In China, it is also customary, to offer the guest of honor the fish’s eyeball (or maybe they were fucking with me). I did a pretty convincing job of pretending to enjoy that
Barbacoa goats head in Dallas ( I had to turn the eyeballs to look away from me, but damn it was tasty)
Ostrich
Venison heart
Venison
Cow’s tongue tacos (in San Pedro, CA) Mmmmmmmmmm
I used to regularly buy a 1/4 of a buffalo until it got too expensive (Less cholesterol and fat than beef)
Squirrel
Rocky Mountain oysters
Wood Duck
She can’t go to Brazil, they’ll laugh at her. Bode (sounds like ‘Bah-gee’), it’s fucking awful, terrible I tell you, especially Buchada de Bode, that shit is fucking gross. Brazilians, they’ll eat anything that doesn’t eat them first.
Her beef comes from the grocery store.
LOL. The Democrats should actually adopt that and run on it. It would be at least a little less dumb than their current campaign idea of behaving the most like hysterical toddlers in the room.
It would certainly fit with their ideology… Basically every part of their platform is based on having your cake and eating it too. It would be totally characteristic of them to promise everyone meat without any animal deaths.
I first had goat in Kuwait. Alright if a bit greasy. Since had it at a hole in the wall taqueria multiple times. Delicious.
Jellyfish & horse are the most exotic I’ve gone.
I see jellyfish in the Asian Grocery* and have never had the courage to buy it. Never knowingly had horse, and the one time I got to try camel, they drowned it in a sauce that covered up the flavor of everything else and made it impossible to tell that the animal tasted like.
*don’t blame me, that is literally the name of the store.
I’ve had jellyfish in a sushi roll. Not bad. I’ve had camel as a burger. It’s okay.
The camel I had was also a burger, but as I said, the sauce overpowered everything, so it might as well have been beef for all the difference it made.
I had some camel that was fairly modestly seasoned with an Arabic spice blend… It was a lot like beef* but with a bit of sweetness. The raw meat was also much darker.
* Almost all grass-eating mammals taste similar to beef, in my experience of eating weird meat.
Octopus is probably the only thing I’ve tried that sort of freaked me out at first. It’s delicious. I actually have a friend who grew up in Maryland and the wife and I went with her and her boyfriend to a seafood place downeyocean. Wife and I ordered oysters on the half shell starting out. I noticed my friend was sort of just starting at that plate of oysters, so I said ‘Hey, we’re sharing’ and she was still just staring at it saying nothing. Then she says ‘no thanks’. And I said ‘You don’t like oysters’? So she tells us ‘I’ve never tried one, they’re… weird’. And so I said ‘Wait, you’ve lived near the bay your entire life and you’ve never had an oyster? It’s about time, here take one of these’. She wouldn’t do it, she looked terrified, lol.
Octopus and squid are fine if I don’t have to see the indications of the original form. If there’s a mess of clearly identifiable tentacles on the plate, I’m not going to be able to eat that.
Shellfish like oysters and clams have a similar problem. The look of it immediately primes me to be sick, so then the texture triggers it. But chopped and cooked, no longer looking like they did in the shell, I no longer have issue.
Squid and octupi do not creep me out in the least. Oysters are something I am very picky about. Large overgrown oysters are sort of gross. I like really smallish ones with a lot of salty brine. Those are delicious. My wife doesn’t seem to care, but when we go to local oyster bars, I always tell them to pick the smallest ones for me.
That sounds very kinky, but I don’t judge. I’d wrap it for the jellyfish, but not the horse.
I long ago realized nature is a cruel, uncaring thing. Our ancestors stumbled onto the adaptive nuclear option, and there is no reason to let our greatest strength hamstring us in the food arms race. Livestock can afford to be gentile and docile because they’ve outsourced their defense and feeding to us. In exchange we get to eat them It is a symbiotic relationship that has served the grains, peppers, cows, pigs and fowl as much as us. It may look like we get the better deal, but the livestock get the animal dream – guaranteed food, shelter, reproduction and protection from random predators save one.
I see no moral issue in taking advantage of our side of the domestication bargain.
I love this Statement, it embodies my choyse to eat Meat, and it’s Tasty!
I think that makes a lot of sense. I think it’s why most of us do not feel any type of remorse from eating animals. It’s ingrained into our very being. This world was never a paradise with safe spaces. It was always pretty much ‘eat or be eaten’. If humans would not have been the ruthless and cunning predators we are, we wouldn’t be here today. For whatever reason, I am unable to feel any type remorse from eating meat. Not even in the slightest. I also cannot even comprehend people who are worrying about the safety of sharks and crocodiles. They are also ruthless killing machines who would wipe us out the first chance they get. People have their priorities all fucked up. I blame first world problems.
A lot of that is just useful idiots who hate humans so they pretend to like “river smelt” or whatever other useless shit they can in order to prevent human progress.
If god didn’t want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?
Yeah, and why did he make them so damned tasty? Doesn’t make sense.
Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder.
I’m willing to grant it’s murder, but the real question is who is going to stop me?
The woke proggies coming in on a blue wave this fall?
Burger King?
And why do they turn grass into prime rib?
The ones that really get me are those that have no compunction about eating beef/pork/poultry.
Then, when they find out you hunt they look at you like some sort of animal murderer.
One of my former bosses was this sort.
A roomate’s GF was this sort too.
Of course they were both ‘city folk’ so it could be a side effect of the ‘how dare you keep firearms’ attitude so prevalent in urbanites.
Concentration Camps are so much easier…….
It’s about the guns. Guns are bad, Mmkay?
I blame Disney.
You mean hunters don’t fire randomly at anything that moves? I’m shocked!
Depending on the hunters I guess. There have been people shot who were mistaken for deer when they were just walking in the woods, without any bright colored clothing, during hunting season. They got Darwined I guess. Either that or the hunters were cops. It was coming right at us!
The biggest danger in hunting is tree stands. Gun related injuries are vanishingly small.
Lots of people get shot during deer season where I am from. They are, almost without exception, city folk who come out and drink to excess, and raise hell in the woods and get shot by their similarly idiot buddies. They mostly don’t die, though, because they are all terrible shots.
The only person I actually know who died in a hunting accident died when he shot himself in the gut while pulling his 30-06 out of his truck.
My guess is that he had it loaded and off safe when driving up to his spot in case he spooked a deer on the way in and didn’t put his rifle back in a safe state before removing it from the truck.
The guy was the son of the wildlife officer in my area, so double shame on him for not knowing better.
Some do. Those woods are dangerous the first day of buck.
Sadly, it is true.
I avoid the woods during deer season if I can. If I do go, I am for sure wearing orange.
On the whole, though, I think most hunters are very conscientious.
On a deer hunting trip in eastern Montana back in the early ’80s, we had shot 11 deer for 5 guys. We had all the deer piled onto a snowmobile trailer and were going back to Minnesoda.
Since I had my driver’s license, my dad and his buddies had me pull over in Dickenson to buy a jug to make the drive home better. Unfortunately the liquor store was next to a movie theater that was showing Bambi. Lots of disturbed kids that afternoon.
*My father can stretch that story out to be about an hour long. His version is pretty good, but if you want to hear it, please make sure I am gone because I have heard it about 100 times already.
Keep and bear.
All you can eat bacon at the breakfast bar is my kind of hwaven
Troy: the pussytarian.
Vaguely related, but years ago I saw this video and found it compelling:
The Good Slaughter: A Proud Meat Cutter Shares His Processing Floor
I will happily spend more for meat if it’s coming from a place like that.
Dressing/cleaning big game is the worst part about hunting. Those guys do it for a living and boy am I glad that someone does it. No matter how many times I clean an ungulate it never gets any easier or less gross (to me anyway).
I was really taken by his readily apparent respect for the animals.
100% agree. We bone our deer out ourselves because the fat on a deer is horrible. The trick to good venison is to remove all the fat. If you bring it in to most butcher shops they simply cut it up like a cow and you are stuck with all that fat on your venison.
Unfortunately boning is hard work and it takes four of us about 1.5 hours per deer.
Is it the field dressing that you find gross? Or the processing? I can see how field dressing can get pretty bad sometimes, but boning is just like trimming regular meat (at least to me).
Field dressing. Once the skin and organs etc. are gone, it’s like cutting up steaks.
So, never having been a hunter, I’d like to get some of you hunters opinion on this. But I’ve had at least one person tell me that midwest deer is very tasty (I can confirm this), because they eat corn, but that deer out west are not any good because they taste like pine needles. Is this in any way true?
Arkansas forest deer eat a steady diet of acorns in the fall and taste great to me.
I’m talking more about west West, like Colorado and Montana.
Diet definitely affects how an animal tastes. Lots of people don’t like pronghorn since they say it tastes like sagebrush. It varies. I personally like pronghorn in sausage for just that reason. I think it’s also how you prepare it. You can’t cook wild game the same way you’d cook beef, there are differences.
For instance: elk’s blood is slightly different than cow and if you overcook it, the meat takes on a gnarly, livery taste. So you just have to know to cook it black and blue.
0.02.
Mule deer that I’ve shot in western N Dak and eastern Montana definitely have a sage smell/taste from their diet that the Minnesoda white tails don’t.
I’ve never hunted white tails out west so I don’t know if they have the sage flavor too.
BTW, the mule deer I shot all tasted just fine. I would not say that they tasted like pine needles.
When I was a kid I shot a doe right through the gut. I got her intestines and stomach. My dad made me field dress that one all by myself. I learned a thing or two about shot placement that day.
Gut shots are the WORST.
No the worst are when you aren’t paying attention because you are such a big game hunting stud and end up cutting too deep and opening up the paunch while you are field dressing a deer.
Not that I did that last year. Just heard about it from a friend.
I only eat Long Pork that I’ve killed myself. The most dangerous game.
We’re looking forward to the ‘Q slays 800 lb monster boar with pocket knife’ video… wait, long pork? It’s a cookbook, long pork is people!
The most dangerous game
Putin would totally play that with his shirt off. What a bunch of pussies.
We all know Q is a tit man. I figured it was just ogling, groping and the like. Tits on toast may not be an euphemism for him.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/0f/e8/e30fe8b13d05865283da7400e0627556.jpg
Those look painful.
People are Tasty!
/not that I ever tasted people………………
NO MORE TAX CUTS!
OK, this is pure unadulterated bullshit once again coming from the media. There is no fucking way that a second round of tax cuts make Republicans more vulnerable. The ‘problem’ they are talking about is only an issue in deep blue states that are never going to vote GOP, no matter what.
“Lance, along with 10 other Republicans from New Jersey, New York and California, voted against the tax bill over concerns that the SALT limit would raise taxes on their constituents.”
Really? How in the hell does that equate to ‘Republicans weigh abandoning second phase of tax cuts after SALT backlash’?
“from New Jersey, New York and California”
This is why…..
Since you broke the OT seal, “we” just decided the derpy 10-term Mass 7th rep wasn’t progging hard enough, so we’ve turned it up to 11 (she will be essentially unopposed in the general).
She’s on par with She Guevara on the free shit agenda, with no mention of how it will be paid for, other than “tax the rich!”.
Good times.
If my neighbors weren’t such lockstep ‘D’ zombies, I’d say this meant something, but I just think it’s “Dems move farther left”, which I don’t think is any sort of long-term winning strategy.
I saw that. The democrats are going all out woke socialist. They’re going all in on this shit.
Which is something that a lot of people, myself included, have been predicting for years.
My worry is that it’s shifting the Overton window even further left.
Not that long ago, he was a Democrat.
Guns is the Answer Gustave, always works….
Problem is you need a red line or a hill to die on. What will that be?
There is a reason I was talking about the Glorious Revolution before. A Catholic Dynasty was the red line and they overthrew James II.
I will wager that the second-highest candidate receiving votes in September will be a write-in socialist candidate.
You get free Shit! and You get free Shit! you, over there, Free Shit for you too !
/Free Shit Brigade!
My Shocked Face
Wow, it is shocking how this turned into such a shit show. I am shocked, shocked I tell you!
Very good writing. Good article.
I cant resist:
“Feeeeeeelings, nothing more than feeeeeeelings,
Trying to forget my feelings of love.
Teardrops rolling down on my face,
Trying to forget my feeeeeelings of love.”
We didn’t make the world, we are just trying to live in it. We didn’t make the rules, we just have to live by them.
It has been less than 100 years since none of these things would have been a consideration. Feeding our children was of primary concern.
Also, no animal with commercial value goes extinct. If not for their food value cows, chickens, pigs, turkeys etc would likely be extinct.
Re Hyperbole:
“now I have to rewrite the crap submission I banged out and thought was oh so clever before I read this”
You should see the unfinished submissions piled up on my desktop for exactly this reason. I wait a week, go back and read it with fresh eyes and think “Who wrote this crap? Whose been on my computer?”
I read other’s submissions and think “Jeez, I come off like a uni freshman after a night’s drinking”
That’s my problem with trying to write fiction. I get a spark of inspiration, roll the idea around in my head for a while, type it out, and when I come back to it the next day, it just seems fucking retarded.
Yes, it goes like that for a few years.
What it takes to get to the stage where you can produce something you’d be willing to show other people is practice. Write more stories, be embarassed by the content, learn from the mistakes, repeat.