I’ve written in the past about my view of rights. Specifically, I see them as characteristics of relationships. To paint with a broad brush, they’re the boundaries of the authority a party can assume within a certain relationship. I really like the way it tidies up certain libertarian gray zones, like minors and animals.
Anyway, there are two ways that libertarians tend to view rights: Deferentialism and Restraintism. Deferentialism is “live and let live.” Restraintism is “mind your own business.” My conception of rights as characteristics of relationships falls heavily on the Restraintist side. One of the big themes of my article on these libertarian views of rights is that Deferentialism cedes any moral standing, but Restraintism retains moral standing. I wrote:
Deferentialism is ineffective in two ways. First, people, even Deferentialists, tend to have a line drawn in the sand where they shift from relativistic deference to the individual to a more absolutist stance. For example, Cosmotarians tend to be Deferentialists up to the point where their particular identity politics ox is gored. Second, Deferentialism gives no answer to Cultural Marxism. Deferentialists are either forced to kowtow to the virulent left, or they end up drifting authoritarian.
Radical Individualism is very strongly correlated with Deferentialism. The radical individualist not only rejects the government meddling that all libertarians loathe, but they also reject any attempt of society, the community, family, or friends to influence their behavior. I believe that the moral relativism inherent in “live and let live” results in a wholecloth rejection of authority, even in situations where the authority may be legitimate. In order to stay philosophically consistent, the radical individualist ends up sounding like the punk 17 year old whining that his parents can’t tell him what to do anymore. This is the most superficial way that radical individualism harms broader libertarianism.
Libertarianism has a reputation for being something you grow out of once you get real life experience. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that it makes sense on paper, but the real world is too complex for it to work. I think that a large portion of that sentiment comes from the outsized influence of the most virulent form of radical individualism, Objectivism. I’ll freely admit that I’ve never read a word of Rand, and I’m not beating the library’s door down to get a copy of Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. However, her influence is felt far and wide through the libertarian movement, and it undergirds the complaints that libertarianism is a pipe dream of maladjusted teenagers.
Taking it down another level, the radical individualist answer to the complexities of the real world tends to be “fuck everything except for my rights.” You’re never going to hear me get squishy on self-ownership, but when this all or nothing attitude transcends the government-citizen relationship, the line blurs between fervent defender of self-ownership and weapons grade asshole.
Not to pick on her, but Nikki’s view on children is an outcropping of radical individualism. (For those who do not remember, Nikki basically believed that children had full agency and that parental discipline/guidance/control was essentially a form of abuse). Despite the fact that the parent-child authority dynamic is perfectly natural and is seen in many species besides our own, Nikki’s complete inability to decouple the illegitimate authority of the state from the legitimate authority of parents led to a facially ridiculous outcome. Whether viewed emotionally, in a utilitarian lens, practically, or in a principled lens, treating children as having full agency is a non-starter.
Just because the most visible and outspoken authority is abused doesn’t mean that there is no legitimate authority in the world. However, most legitimate authority is voluntary authority. I listen to my boss’s instructions because I want to be paid. The day I no longer need my paycheck is the day that my boss loses his authority over me.
Of course, I’m talking in abstraction when it comes to authority relationships as if a person has carte blanche authority over another. Every authority relationship has boundaries. In the government context, those boundaries are called rights. In a familial context, violation of those boundaries is called abuse. In social settings, those boundaries are called manners, propriety, or a handful of other names.
However, I don’t think this point needs any more belaboring. It’s not particularly interesting or controversial to say that all relationships have boundaries.
What’s more interesting is Distributism, specifically their foundational belief that the nuclear family is the base social unit, not the individual. I’m sympathetic to this belief primarily because I think that the modern shift away from traditional family has been on the back of government programs and government incentives. If I were to jump to the crux of the issue with radical individualism, I think this is it: radical individualism is unsustainable absent government subsidy.
Literal individualism (never marrying, never procreating) is self-defeating as a concept. You live your life, you die, and your specific form of individualism is gone like a fart on the wind. Not saying you can’t live this way or that society should disfavor people who live this way, but it’s a transient way of life. You cannot base a society on a concept that, if practiced by all, would result in the extinction of your society within one generation.
Subsidized individualism (single parenthood, divorce, etc.) only works because government is paying for it. I was watching The Sands of Iwo Jima the other day, and there was a scene where a woman tries to trap John Wayne’s character into a marriage because her husband had run out on her (or died in the war, I forget which). Being a single parent in the 19th and early 20th centuries was ROUGH. There was no “affordable preschool”, there were no flexible work hours, there was no FMLA. There were no anti-discrimination laws for hiring single moms. By and large, people remarried quickly and relied on family to help them out in the interim. Family was necessary…. fundamental, even.
The subsidies go even further than you see at first glance. Even though all demographics take advantage of the “free” public schooling available to babysit their kids for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 13 years, the effects of removing that subsidy would be felt quite unevenly across demographics. Nuclear families, while being thoroughly inconvenienced (especially those who have an inflated two income lifestyle), have the blueprint to retake supervisory authority over their kids. One parent works. One watches the kids. Icky patriarchial family structure.
What about subsidized individualists? What happens to the single mom or dad when the government subsidies go away? Sure, the affluent can afford hired help for raising the kids, but the masses can’t afford such a thing. The masses… they could go broke paying for daycare/private school, and a few probably would. Most would change their situation by either creating a nuclear family or relying on extended family to help out. Either way, family is the core. When you take the subsidies away, all that is left is family.
This is why radical individualism is a blight on libertarianism. It’s either self-defeating on a societal level (in the case of literal individualism), or it’s based on a lifestyle that is antithetical to libertarianism on a societal level (in the case of subsidized individualism).
I didn’t really address voluntary community in this article for two reasons. 1) I’m not convinced that community isn’t a form of extended family. 2) Voluntary community has a history of helping on the fringes, not massively altering the incentives across society.
Instead of turning this into an essay, I’ll just leave a few questions for the commentariat’s consideration. If the family is the base unit of society, what does a dysfunctional family mean for society? Does any of this actually matter when it comes to governance, or is it just useful as a framework to convince others to embrace libertarianism? How do individuals interact in a family-centric society?
Is the site stable now so we don’t comment for nothing?
Lol.
I don’t remember it ever being stable.
not unlike Kant
I think he meant the site’s infrastructure, not the commenters.
All comments are for nothing.
Unless you’re a paid commenter.
Who’s paying Pie?
Ze Russians?
I am actually paid by the Kazakhs
but the chicks are free
few not free. common mistake
Nikki was, indeed, the worst. She also thought there was nothing wrong with killing a newborn infant because hey, it can’t sustain itself so it’s not really a person.
IIRC, she also resents property taxes that go to public schools and the marriage exemption on tax returns and I could never fault her for that.
The real fun came when Nikki started ranting about how homeowners/renters had an obligation to shovel their sidewalks. Trying to square that with her other positions hurt my brain.
“Other people have an obligation to me” is occasionally something I catch myself thinking when I’m irritated or inconvenienced, then have to go back and reset myself.
I always assumed I simply misunderstood her position (lots of concussions, eh), because that always sounded like flat out murder to me.
She’, she is just a horrible human being.
I think that was some hand-waving on her part, but she is more definitely an anti-natalist on moral grounds. Specifically, the act of bringing life into being in a suffering world is an immoral and selfish act. She referenced David Benatar’s argumentation on it a few times when we were discussing it.
Self contradictory. Either you have no moral obligation for the happiness of others, or you do. You can’t have it both ways.
It’s just fancy nihilism as far as I’m concerned.
Besides which, without higher intelligence there are no moral considerations. Voluntarily ending the human race through denial of reproduction just produces a universe with no morality at all. It’s irrelevant.
Specifically, the act of bringing life into being in a suffering world is an immoral and selfish act.
See, also, a society that will be extinct within one generation (maybe two).
She and other anti-natalists would see that as an improvement in the moral balance of the universe.
I never realized that was a real position seriously held by people. I’ve read “The Conspiracy Against the Human Race”, by perhaps the finest horror author of all time, Thomas Ligotti, and assumed it was at least in part satirical, or perhaps some sort of companion work to his other writing, but apparently it’s really a thing. What a miserable way to go through life.
A lot of them are hedonists in practice. Denial of pleasure being immoral and all.
Whoah, really? Like fully born, thrown in a dumpster is not really an issue?
That is some cold shit.
She really is the worst.
And I always thought that was a running joke for something not-bad-at-all.
I think I broke one day and just flat out called her evil.
And not in a snarky kind of way.
Well, in her defense, that was the practice more or less in many societies in the past, generally pre-Christian. The Norse and the Spartans in particular would kill babies born lame or with some visible defect by exposing them to the elements or throwing them off cliffs, that type of thing. Not that one should hold either of those societies up as blueprints of moral behavior, and in both cases I believe even at the time there was some moral horror at the idea.
“Spartan” society was one class within their overall society that lived in such fear of another Helot uprising that they structured their lives and institutions around keeping the Helots in check. This resulted in utter stagnation that eventually destroyed them. They might have gone unconquered during that time, but they had chained themselves to the spot and system.
Radical Individualism is very strongly correlated with Deferentialism. The radical individualist not only rejects the government meddling that all libertarians loathe, but they also reject any attempt of society, the community, family, or friends to influence their behavior. – how many such people are there, really?
I believe that the moral relativism inherent in “live and let live” results in a wholecloth rejection of authority, even in situations where the authority may be legitimate. – I am not sure I am convinced of this…
Libertarianism has a reputation for being something you grow out of once you get real life experience. – I don’t see where this would come from youth tend more socialist then libertarian and many more grow out of left views…
However, her influence is felt far and wide through the libertarian movement, and it undergirds the complaints that libertarianism is a pipe dream of maladjusted teenagers. – the problem with this is the attempts of non libertarians to label libertarians in neat groups. But being the non group think ideology, this does not work a thing many refuse to accept. I have been asked several times for the definitive view on libertarianism…
You beat me to it.
Not to mention that Objectivists have a….strange….foreign policy outlook that is not shared by many others who call themselves libertarian. To be fair, though, Rand and none of her disciples have claimed to be libertarian, either.
She was very anti-LP, at least in the early days of the party.
Libertarianism has a reputation for being something you grow out of once you get real life experience
I’ve become increasingly more libertarian as I’ve aged.
You’ve convinced me, Trashy. I’m an anti-natalistist now.
Excellent article.
Church families, for one. The foundation of Mormonism is the family, and the other members are the extended family. We are taught from the cradle to take care of one another.
Early Puritan societies not only taught this but tended to make laws about it.
Hence the new Puritan times in which we currently live.
I’d say that community is an extended family. I can’t be the only one who had Uncles and Aunts that were just friends of my parents? I know a couple of children that have called me Uncle or Mister that I’m not related to. The big difference is that you can pick what communities you join, and who your friends are… blood relatives you may be stuck with.
I have a huge extended family, and my parents never had just friends who were close like that. My husband was on his own basically from 14 on and he was forced to be an individualist. He had no real safety net at all until he came back to church.
In my writing, though, I often explore that non-blood-related family dynamic, where often, family is what you make it. I probably wouldn’t have one outside the church because I’m not generally a joiner.
Both my parents are from families at least 8 siblings (and only one of them was Catholic!). So I’ve got a huge extended family as well, but there were still a couple of friends of the parents who me and my sister were raised to call aunts and uncles. Now, half of the extended family has broken off contact with my family due to issues in the past, and I don’t see much of my other cousins, aunts, or uncles. The last time I saw most of them last was at my grandmother’s funeral over four years ago.
I come from rather large families as well, one set of grandparents had 9 (catholics), the other 5, and my parents had 5. My parents best friends were aunts and uncles as well. And there are several kids I’ve helped raised that I’m not related to that call me uncle as well.
I’m trying to find words to articulate my opinion on social safety nets. I am risk-adverse in general, but loathe the idea of a social safety net not for any high-minded individualism, but because I’d hate to impose on people. I have no qualms about asking for knowledge, because knowledge shared does not get lost. But the thought of taking material support triggers pre-emptive guilt.
Same, but if *I* were to take care of someone else, *I* would not feel it an imposition, even if they do. Generally, one doesn’t get to repay kindnesses directly to that person, but you can eventually help someone else.
I cannot repay a moral debt to a different person from which it was incurred and more than I can a financial one.
I cannot repay a moral debt to a different person from which it was incurred and more than I can a financial one.
I am wired this way. Which means that, when someone I owe a moral debt to dies, that debt is irredeemable. I have such an irredeemable debt, and in the wee dark hours, it is a terrible burden. I hope never to have another one.
Not a fan of pay it forward then?
No. Stop guilt-tripping people who happen to stumble onto your trail at the wrong time.
I don’t see it as a method of discharging the debt to one person, although I can see now what I implied. I said if I were to help someone, I would not feel as if that person owed me a debt.
I think we have some insurance adjusters, I’d like for one of them to give a view of what monthly premiums for a private Social Security Insurance would be. One that pays out for unemployment, disability and such. If I had the faculties for it I think it would be something interesting to study.
Your assumption is that the shysters running pyramid schemes like Social Security would allow others to compete with their racket…
I’m not saying it could be implemented currently, but if we ever get a shot I’d be interested in what that would look like.
On a similar note, and it is been discussed in the past, at least on TOS (I remember an argument with John), I would like to see the cost of term health insurance.
“Just because the most visible and outspoken authority is abused doesn’t mean that there is no legitimate authority in the world. However, most legitimate authority is voluntary authority. I listen to my boss’s instructions because I want to be paid. The day I no longer need my paycheck is the day that my boss loses his authority over me.”
This. As soon as something ceases to be of value, the need to comply goes away. And if force needs to be used to make people comply, then it obviously is no longer about anything but control.
You cannot base a society on a concept that, if practiced by all, would result in the extinction of your society within one generation.-
But what if I want society to wither away with the state?
What’s more interesting is Distributism, specifically their foundational belief that the nuclear family is the base social unit, not the individual.
Reflexively I hate this take, because individualism. But it’s an excellent thought and you lay out the argument nicely.
I’m not sure that I understand where libertarianism comes into play here, though. I think it’s pretty clear that strong nuclear families bode well for the people lucky enough to exist in one, but how to explain those – many here – who came from epic shitshows, yet are successful in large part because of their strong sense of individualism?
As far as governance, I firmly believe that the best governance is that which happens closest to the individual. In that respect, the family is much better organization than any government.
Intersting article trashy! A lot to think about and I appreciate you writing it up.
the thing is individualism allows escape from shitty family. But it is not the preferred way for society, just a last resort. And a way in time to build better families, as if you don’t behave you are left alone.
I see individualism building better communities overall, as people need to behave or they are kicked out. The issue with enforced communities especially of the welfare state sort is that if you cannot cut someone off they have no reason to change behavior. Individualism is not anti-community, collectivism is in the end anti–community
“I see individualism building better communities overall, as people need to behave or they are kicked out.”
And yet the whole community building aspect never materializes
how you figure?
If radical individualism builds better communities then the West would not be experiencing a decline in family formation and membership in voluntary organizations. As individualism has become more central in Western thought (circa 1950’s forward, I’d say) community has suffered. Which is not to say that emphasizing the individual is bad or good- just that it doesn’t build community.
i did not say radical individualism.
As individualism has become more central in Western thought – has it? then how come all the collectivism in everything?
Ironically, the more individuals (as in those not constrained by voluntary community or family) in a society the more the state grows. Look at any major city in America where the decline in the number of families correlates with increased services and taxes.
i do not call that individualism. for me individualism is incompatible with high tax government. but i suppose here is about definitions
Yes. Agreed. Definitions make this whole discussion an endless bout of circular logic.
How can you be sure to lay that at the feet of individualist thought? It is logical that it *could* be a result of individualism, but you’re also talking about a time period which includes the birth of the welfare state, which makes going it alone a lot more tenable for many people, without any change at all in ideology.
I’m not even wedded to this argument placing blame on radical individualism, but I think that the argument has been made that the Great Society, for example, came about around the same time as legalized divorce and the greater accessibility of contraceptives.
Their argument (which again is not necessarily something that I wholly agree with) is that it is not coincidental that when the US had the greatest percentage of people that lived within inter-generational families the state exercised the least amount of authority.
I’m not saying this is right, but I don’t accept the notion that greater individualism will lead to better communities.
Communities seem better to me in places with little welfare… I have not seen a heavy welfare community which I find functional
families may be more stable with no divorce but I doubt better.
I’m not trying to defend these arguments. I’m only offering a clumsy summary of what the anti-liberals believe
I think it comes down to people desiring a certain level of stability. If enough stability is not being provided for them (such as by government) they will seek out or create their own (families, voluntary organizations, etc.). On the other hand, if a certain amount of stability is already achieved, people will be less likely to create more, so you will see a decay in the more difficult, even if more fulfilling, founts of stability. I think this also helps to explain why wealth often breeds decadence – with the baseline stability achieved, people are more likely to pursue destabilizing behaviors in pursuit of pleasure since they already feel secure and have less incentive to make the more difficult choices that breed greater stability.
But it is not the preferred way for society,…
Whose society, though? I think maybe I’m just having trouble with the term ‘society’ as if it’s a monolithic entity.
The thing I like best about libertarianism in general is that it provides a framework by which many individuals, tribes and even societies can exist without killing or enslaving the others.
But it is only possible through the commitment of individuals.
Whatever. I’m only here as eye candy anyhow. I’ll leave the deep thoughts up to you people.
Whose society, though? – most societies are family based and in general people with good families tend to be better off in the long run
The thing I like best about libertarianism in general is that it provides a framework by which many individuals, tribes and even societies can exist without killing or enslaving the others. – I don’t see it this way. for this to happen all those societies must believe in non agression
But if you go too far down that path you end up like England with their ASBO’s. You almost need something like the small private cities from Snowcrash to have enough options for people to pick a place that works for them, and that they fit into.
What’s more interesting is Distributism, specifically their foundational belief that the nuclear family is the base social unit, – the family is the basic unit of social organization. the individual is the basic unit for rights and responsibilities.
you lost me at the part of subsidies. single mothers are not radical individualists.
How do individuals interact in a family-centric society? – by creating good stable families i would say
Just because I don’t think certain things should not be illegal does not mean I encourage people to do them, this is an idea that some people seem to have a hard time grasping. Because since I’m a libertarian I am surely in favor of giving kids heroin.
heroin makes the mines more bearable, gets you 2 more years of work out if the median orphan
Giving? Of course not. Get a job, layabouts.
I think you make some broad over generalizations here, but it is difficult to not do so when writing on such a topic. I agree on your conception of “authority”. I’ve never bought into the thinking that all authority is oppressive, even those which you willingly submit to. And this line of thinking is self-defeating. You can’t argue that government isn’t necessary, because there are private entities who will care for the poor and educate the young, while simultaneously applauding the decline in family formation or fraternal organizations.
I’m somewhat interested in where the decline in fraternal organizations came from, and if it’s generational. I know my dad complains about the membership of the American Legion post, and how they don’t attract young members. Yet at the same time I have a friend (and several acquaintances) who are members of the Knights of Columbus.
The data suggests generational, but I don’t know if anyone has pinpointed what led to it.
I know I’ve read some things about health insurance being responsible for the drop, but that’s something that was changed around 40 years ago. I also wonder if the rise of the internet and cell communication may have had an impact as well, as people can join their own communities (such as this one) around the world.
I can’t prove it, but as someone who is very involved in civil-social organizations (a superset of fraternal organizations) my belief is that you can see what happened in time-use studies of adult males, particularly men, particularly fathers.
Compared to the Greatest Generationers, Gen-Xers spend a little more time at work, a lot more time on house-cleaning, the same amount of time on non-cleaning-house-work (lawn mowing, home repair), and a lot-lot-lot more time on direct child-care.
Fifty years ago, a cub scout den leader was called a “Den Mother” because it was a job for Mothers in the evening / weekends when Dad was at the Lodge or the Legion. Now adays, I think that job is probably staffed 75% by men.
Men are trading social time in for more time with their kids and house-cleaning. On paper this sounds good. In practice, its been a mixed bag. Mental health outcomes for adult males, especially men, especially fathers, is in the toilet. Suicide, depression, early all-cause mortality and bi-polar incidence is all up across the board. We report lower levels of life satisfaction and of short-term happyness.
is this “caused” by feminism? By women in the work force? By technology? Maybe, but I don’t think so.
Oh – we also join fewer groups / activities, but we take part in them much deeper. There is no bowling league full of guys who don’t really care about bowling. There are fewer bowling leagues, but everyone is a passionate bowler. Fewer folk-dance groups, but everyone is a hard-core folk-dancer. Fewer bible-study groups, but the people are more hard-core-church-goers.
Speaking for myself as a Gen-Xer, I’m intrigued by this. I’m not pleased with my current lifestyle, outside social groups (as anti-group as I may be) might improve my outlook.
I definitely fit the description provided.
I’m a Gen-Xer, and don’t belong to any clubs. Hell, I haven’t even joined a local homebrewing club (although I am a member of the AHA). I joined a team last year for a charity ride, and while I enjoyed it, I never really felt like a part of a group. That may have been that I was too slow for the fast group, and too fast for the slow group, or it may have been something from my side.
I’ve had to have a few long talks with my wife, but we have come to the agreement that 1) I am responsible for my own laundry and the kitchen once a week 2) I need a few hours every night to play video games or read, and 3) I need around 3 nights a month for socializing with other men or fathers 4) while I continue to be involved at the same level as a parent.
My wife does the rest of the cleaning (well, in honest, our house is just an absolute mess,) mows the lawn, does snow removal, and does bed-times every night.
Its been good, but honestly my biggest challenge is getting other fathers to go do the socializing thing.
I’m a Gen-Xer, and don’t belong to any clubs.
And yet, here you are. Posting regularly. Contributing content. Teaching people how to home brew.
You club is just remote.
Leap, I think the age of the kids may play a part.
My husband is only now (at 52) at a point where he can go socialize with other men (from church) (which I encourage) and do Guy Stuff.
We are only recently (last 3-4 years) able to leave our kids alone at home so he and I can go have a date without having to ask someone to sit the kids.
kinnath: That would also bolster the point that community can be chosen, even by individualists. At least the dues for this club are cheap. 🙂
“I’m a Gen-Xer, and don’t belong to any clubs.
And yet, here you are. Posting regularly. Contributing content. Teaching people how to home brew.
You club is just remote.”
While that’s true, I think there is something to be said about proximity and familiarity when it comes to community. Most of us don’t even know each other’s actual faces or much about one another.
Internet clubs – its also very different because we self-select based on our interest in a topic (libertarian outlook on politics).
We do a much better job than most self-selected-for-an-interest in communities about bringing our ‘whole self’ into the group. But still, its not the same as, say, my involvement in a tool library that exposes me to people with very different politics, educational background, family make up, world outlook, etc.
I’m kind of in the same boat – don’t get out too much to socialize, especially with men / fathers.
I am now part of the community pool ground maintenance so I spent a few hours cutting down vines, digging up a stump, etc. It felt good to hang out with someone else and just do old-fashioned work. Not a lot of talk was needed; and the beer break (in 30 degree weather) was perfect.
I do miss the teenage days of playing AD&D, Battletech, Car Wars, etc – but really don’t want to join a gaming group all that much. It really is too much of a time suck given a full time job, family ,and all that. But it would be nice to have one night a week, or maybe 2x a month where I could hang out with individuals with a common interest (no homo).
I think there is something to be said about proximity and familiarity when it comes to community.
I have really good friends from one of my “clubs” that I see half a dozen times a year because we live a couple hundred miles apart.
I have the local beer club that I see once a month.
I have glibs every day. And I have far-reaching conversations about a wide range of topics.
I sometimes ponder the fact that my “closest” friends are just avatars on a web page.
I sometimes ponder the fact that my “closest” friends are just avatars on a web page.
Lol. Just don’t think about it.
I’m with Mr. Mojeaux. With one kid off to college and the other one incredibly involved in activities, I’m suddenly adrift. Thinking about it, most of my social interaction with men was almost always kid activity related. It was a blast at the time, but there’s definitely something missing.
My wife and I have been empty-nesters for going on two decades.
There was a significant period of time where things were adrift as we went from being constantly busy dealing with the kids and their hobbies and to being busy with our own new or revived hobbies.
Yep. It’s time to revive some of my old hobbies. Luckily, some of my pals from the old days are in the same boat.
“Thinking about it, most of my social interaction with men was almost always kid activity related.”
I think that speaks to the argument that families create community out of necessity. Single individuals are not forced to create community.
And yet, here you are. Posting regularly. Contributing content. Teaching people how to home brew.
You club is just remote.
It took me a while to get my wife to understand this. No, I’m not just fucking around on the computer, I’m getting an hour of socialization that I don’t otherwise have the time, money, or resources to get.
I’ll add myself as somebody who isn’t particularly happy with my lifestyle. Frankly, I feel like I don’t have enough time in the day to accomplish everything that needs done, spend quality time with the family, and socialize. Everything I do feels like a compromise, and that wears on me. I think that the type of job contributes significantly to my dissatisfaction. I rarely come home with a sense of accomplishment, and I’m mentally drained. The result is that even the groups that I am involved with feel like chores most weeks.
My parents and their friends all belonged to several organizations (Eagles, Elks, JayCees, KoC, etc.)
Neither myself or any of my close friends belong to any organization like that. The closest I come to anything like that is a group of us that have an ongoing basketball league. And even there we don’t have permanent teams or anything like that.
I take a dim view of any organization that would accept me as a member.
Totally speculating here, but I wonder if it’s a combination of increasing mobility in teenage years combined with increased college enrollment.
Even where I teach, which is largely a commuter campus, many students get involved in a lot of campus groups. Those who don’t spend a lot of their time working. I would imagine at residential campuses, with more on campus activities there’s a lot more for kids to do there. And that’s not allowing for local activities in college towns.
Hmm. Apartment cat came by. Friendly sumbitch – gotta scratch his face
“You can tell me what to do, daddy”
“Wash that crap out of your hair and get a job.”
I don’t see how that is so. It may be impractical and even immoral(?), but it could also be principled.
My understanding of your argument is that rights exist between co-equals. Children are not equal to their parents, thus children do not have all the normal rights when it comes to their relationship with parents. You also seem to indicate that children, and potentially others within your family have positive rights with respect to other family members. How do you determine where these rights and responsibilities lie? When do they end, and why?
“What’s more interesting is Distributism, specifically their foundational belief that the nuclear family is the base social unit, not the individual. I’m sympathetic to this belief primarily because I think that the modern shift away from traditional family has been on the back of government programs and government incentives. If I were to jump to the crux of the issue with radical individualism, I think this is it: radical individualism is unsustainable absent government subsidy.”
While I agree that Distributism is an interesting idea (even if it was never fully fleshed out) and I guess I have to considering my avatar picture, it should also be noted that Distributism was specifically an anti-liberal attempt at economic theory. Distributists wholly reject liberalism and view both capitalism and socialism as derived from the same poisoned ideologies of the Enlightenment (some would argue that socialism was actually an outgrowth of German Idealism and therefore Romanticism, but that is neither here nor there).
While they do believe that the base unit of society should be the “family” and not the “individual” they do support certain individual rights. It should also be noted that Distributism is based upon certain individual rights, such as the Right to Property (which is a central idea of Distributism).
Also, I’m going to guess that you recently read Michel Houellebecq’s “Submission” considering your topic here and your brief aside about Distributism
Should I bother with that book? I know how it ends……
Same reason I skipped that horrible movie Titanic.
I’d recommend reading any of his books. They border on the pornographic, depending on which novel, but it’s probably one of the more original critiques of Western society today
Wait, how do you critique western society and make it pornographic? Can you provide a synopsis?
His books have a lot of graphic depictions of sex and yet his characters suffering from both isolation and boredom.
I cannot provide a brief sample of the pornographic parts, because it is well beyond safe for work. I’ve thought about writing something about his general argument that is repeated time and again in all of his books, but it’s really filthy to even sample some of his writing.
Buy a copy of “Atomized” (the title may be translated as “The Elementary Particles”) it’s by far his most sexually explicit work. And it’s somewhat autobiographical
I have not, but I just added it to the reading list.
You might relate to his criticisms of Western society. I am genuinely shocked that you haven’t read “Submission”. You almost completely used his argument in your article. In fact, in the book there is a brief discussion on Distributism
That’s stretching the truth a fair bit.
Socialism, or more specifically, Hegel’s philosophical underpinnings for socialism was a reaction to the Enlightenment, not part of it. Kant, Rousseau, Schopenhauer, etc… were all highly dissatisfied with how the Enlightenment had pushed religion to the back of the room and were, in their own way, seeking to restore societal obligations to a “higher calling” than the self.
Capitalism is just Marx’s slur for free people freely trading.
“(some would argue that socialism was actually an outgrowth of German Idealism and therefore Romanticism, but that is neither here nor there).”
Yeah, I agree. That’s why I wrote the parentheses up top. I’m just reciting what the Distributist would argue. I think their argument is inconclusive and all hinges on how we would classify Kant (Enlightenment thinker or a product of Romanticism)
Authority means precise knowledge and skill, it appears it also means something else
It’s Authority vs. Authoritah.
And another perversion of language
There are a lot of assumptions in this portion of your argument. A radical individualist can still willingly enter into familial arrangements, why wouldn’t one, if they felt it was in their best interest?
I take his definition here of individualist is of the “I don’t need anybody” type, and a family would oblige one whenever one didn’t feel like being obliged.
Even Spock needed Love.
Relevant.
I was expecting a clip from “Amok Time”
Oops, no. I don’t recall watching one original Star Trek episode in its entirety.
I think there is a more substantial difference between individualists and radical individualists as you’ve described. I would think it needs to be a philosophical difference for it to make sense, else I find no real difference between individualists and radical individualists. Doe sit really boil down to a simple matter of preference?
I think ‘I don’t need anybody’, but that doesn’t stop me from having the family I want.
This right here, I Want not need
Of course the radical individualist could well respond that he/she doesn’t need a family but cares enough about the people involved that he/she chooses to bind himself/herself to the others that way.
There is no such fucking thing as “society”. Society is the illusion of organization that occurs when you lose track of the seven and a half living, breathing souls that wander the earth interacting in a mostly cooperative fashion.
The only issue is whether that cooperation is voluntary or coerced.
Government is coercion. People do not have relationships with government. They are only subject to its coercion.
Society exists as an abstract term describe a larger group of humans. It does not exist as the left uses the term like an organism in itself but it does exist. look out a window
Government “services” people like bulls “service” cows…
I may quibble with you a bit with regards to your analogy Alex.
In general I like it. However, technically, I believe the govt and the bull are not aiming at the same orifice.
Touche there Jimbo. The government has a kinky disposition and a fetish with the brown eye. I wish I could say that there was nothing wrong with that, but when it comes from government, it sure is bad.
Alex coming up with his analogy
“The only issue is whether that cooperation is voluntary or coerced.”
Exactly
oops
seven and a half billion living,
*shelves idea for a novel about time-looped reincarnation creating the illusion that there are more than 7.5 real people in the world*
I’d read that.
#Metoo. I think you’d have to be a very particular kind of smart to pull it off, and I’m not that particular kind of smart.
Wasn’t the whole plot of the new Battlestar Galactica?
There are 7.5 living souls in the world. The rest are all P-zombies.
“What about subsidized individualists? What happens to the single mom or dad when the government subsidies go away? Sure, the affluent can afford hired help for raising the kids, but the masses can’t afford such a thing. The masses… they could go broke paying for daycare/private school, and a few probably would.”
But that’s mostly due to costs of taxes and regulations. They make daycare/private school way more expensive, and leave single parents with much less buying power.
Feature, not bug.
So, first, lemme just say this was a great read and I appreciate being given lots to think about. I kind of heard the record skip when I got to this bit, though:
This is backwards, at least depending on where you live. In the DC metro, and I suspect this is true in many if not most metropolitan areas on the east coast, the only people who can afford single-income households are the very poor (because they’re being subsidized) or the relatively well-off. It’s extremely difficult if not impossible to maintain a family on a single typical middle-class income. You need two incomes, even if one is just supplemental, depending on what kinds of perks come with the breadwinner’s job. In my family, we cannot afford to pay all our bills, eat, and keep a roof over our head on my income alone. We’re actually better off paying for daycare (and eventually school, if we go private as I’d prefer) than being a single-earner home; we can’t afford a stay-at-home parent unless that parent is staying at home to work remotely. Hell, one couple we’re friends with is in a situation where the wife, who’d been a stay-at-home mom, is considering getting a daycare license to bring in some extra money.
I’m nitpicking, because I tend to agree with your broader point about family being an important, perhaps vital, element of individual survival. Still, I can say from my own experience and that of many people I know and have known that dual-income households exist as much out of necessity as out of a desire to afford nice things.
“I will never live for the sake of another man, or ask another man to live for mine.” Even this radical individualism of Rand is tempered by the characters and events in her books. Loving families exist in Galt’s Gulch, friends do things (“objectivist charity”) for each other: Rearden doesn’t demand Taggart share gas expenses when they go on the road looking for 20th Century Motors; Taggart doesn’t throw the bum off the train. She admitted, regarding the poor, “If you want to help them, you will not be stopped.” Rand, like most libertarians, is judgmental but also appears to be tolerant in that she (we) won’t go out recruiting armed agents to force you to comply with our judgments as to your behavior that doesn’t involve aggression.
This is the shortest and most distilled admittance that Rand was a deeply broken maniac. I would pity her, if it wasn’t for the fact that she spread so much of her misery around.
Subsidized individualism
I’m kind at odds with the idea that this sort of thing even can be properly construed as individualism, though. It strikes me as wanting the advantages of individualism while expecting others to absorb the costs. And it isn’t even a “no True Scotsman” situation. If you’re expecting to be subsidized by the collective, you’re not really taking an individualist position.
But, if this isn’t really individualism, it seems like a bit of a strawman to cite it as such.
OT, but this comes to no surprise for those of us that have seen this trending now for at least 2 decades. The Clintons and Obamas are not both billionaires by accident if you know what I am saying…
Becoming rich based on political connections makes you a noble public servant. As opposed to business owners who get rich from exploiting poor people. It is known.
So you are saying that fucking over the productive tax payer (YOU DIDN’T BUILD THAT!) is far more noble than making profits off a consumer that has a choice not to buy the shit you are peddling, right?
“If she had picked a different night where he didn’t have a selfie to prove his alibi – she could have ruined his life:”
https://twitter.com/AsheSchow/status/1063925503126433792
“She Claimed He Broke Into Her House And Assaulted Her. A Selfie Proved She Lied.”
https://www.dailywire.com/news/38473/she-claimed-he-broke-her-house-and-assaulted-her-ashe-schow
She is still anonymous.
It was the one-armed man! He was holding a selfie stick in the other hand.
A crash course in Distributist arguments, if anyone is interested.
https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/06/what-is-distributism.html
Will I lose IQ points looking at this, or will I be pleasantly surprised?
It’s not *dumb*, necessarily. It’s heavily reliant upon religion, though.
In it’s defense, if the economic left had embraced Distributism or Georgism, instead of socialism and communism, I think the world would have been a far better place (and a lot less people would have been murdered by state entitites).
Everybody knows Jesus was a socialist because he totally agreed with rendering onto Caesar what was his so Caesar could then pay out a living wage!
To an extent the errors of the Social Gospel Movement are also found in Distributist thinking. The key difference is that Distributists emphasize “subsidiarity” (which is that local governments should have the most authority and larger governmental authorities should have the least authority) and reject government management of industry.
They are also almost like Georgists with their obsession over land. But, unlike Georgists, they also recognize a “natural right to owning land” (whereas, Georgists believe that no one can truly *own* a natural resource, but instead people pay for an exclusive right to said resource).
And, as trashmnstr notes, they generally reject the notion that the individual should be the center of society and instead believe that the family unit should be the center of society. Also, no joke, they prefer “industrial guilds” (where an entire industry from management to worker are part of a trade association to maximize profits) over “labor unions” (where workers of a specific industry are part of an association to maximize wages).
They are proudly reactionary in praising the Medieval Age, while disparaging the Age of Enlightenment.
On topic to some degree. There is a new troll at Reason that is even more dishonest than PB and more unhinged than Hihn:
THIS IS WHY “LIBERTARIANISM” IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.
IT FAILS TO ADDRESS THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE WHOLENESS OF THE ISSUES IN DEPTH.
IT PROVIDES OVERLY-SIMPLISTIC ASSESSMENTS TO CONVOLUTED PROBLEMS.
IT FAILS TO EXAMINE HISTORICAL CONTEXTS, SEEKING TO IMPLEMENT COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE “SOLUTIONS” THAT HAVE ALREADY PROVEN COMPLETE FAILURES IN THE PAST.
IN FACT, IN ORDER TO TRY TO MAKE “LIBERTARIAN” “FREE MARKET” IDEALS A REALITY, IT WOULD REQUIRE STRICT MARKET CONTROLS AND ENFORCEMENTS.
ONE WOULD HAVE TO REQUIRE THAT NO ONE BE ALLOWED TO PRIVATELY MANIPULATE MARKETS IN ORDER TO TRY TO ESTABLISH TRUE “FREE MARKETS”.
FREEDOM FROM GOVERNMENT IMPOSED MARKET MANIPULATIONS WOULD ALSO NEED TO MEAN FREEDOM FROM INDIVIDUALLY IMPOSED MARKET MANIPULATIONS.
YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
YET WITHOUT GOVERNMENT MANIPULATIONS, YOU GET INDIVIDUAL MANIPULATIONS.
THUS “LIBERTARIANISM” IS WHOLLY CONTRADICTORY.
JESUS, TRY READING THE PLETHORA OF HISTORICAL PHILOSOPHICAL TEXTS ON THE ISSUE.
ADAM SMITH HIMSELF RECOGNIZED THE PROBLEMS.
I don’t even know where to start with this.
I don’t know about anyone else but the ALL CAPS is really compelling in of itself.
Something about text written like that makes my eyes skip past it to the next properly capitalized word.
I miss Herc’s creative placement of ALL CAPS. It was a window into a strange and wonderful world.
This guy is just sad.
So it really is like Cruise Control for Cool?
>>YET WITHOUT GOVERNMENT MANIPULATIONS, YOU GET INDIVIDUAL MANIPULATIONS.
OTHER THAN THE SHOUTING… I would rather have individual “manipulations” than some gigantic cudgel of one.
It’s like the retarded cousin of the individual discrimination is the same as societal discrimination argument.
But government is noble and the right vehicle to pick winners & losers!
So, he’s auditioning for a columnist slot, is what you’re saying?
STEVE SMITH SAY GET LOST, STOP STEALING HIS SCHTICK!
Follow the Constitution, simple
I read the reason post on ACLU against new university sex assault regulations and found a strange conversation.
Evergreen comment
UR A RETARD
NO UR A RETARD
I can’t imagine why I stopped going there.
Literal individualism (never marrying, never procreating) is self-defeating as a concept. You live your life, you die, and your specific form of individualism is gone like a fart on the wind. Not saying you can’t live this way or that society should disfavor people who live this way, but it’s a transient way of life. You cannot base a society on a concept that, if practiced by all, would result in the extinction of your society within one generation.
Society can go fuck itself.
*flies away to Neverneverland to torment crocodiles*
Also- I must have scrolled past even more of Nikki than I remembered.
If any of our Nihongo-glibs are on to read this, A Japanese American history text, with illustrations!
https://twitter.com/nick_kapur/status/1062823813338091520
Not 100% accurate. They give Martha Washington’s name as “Carol.”
Together, John Adams and the eagle kill the enormous snake that ate his Mom.
don’t start at the end! it totally ruins the suspense.
And here is George Washington straight-up punching a tiger.
YES!
U-S-A
U-S-A
U-S-A
U-S-A
They say, when you can print the truth or print the legend, print the legend.
I like it.
That’s fantastic.
Jefferson was well endowed.
The commentary is hilarious. Thanks for sharing.
So it’s all true?
https://youtu.be/l7iVsdRbhnc
That was a good laugh or two. Much appreciated since I needed it today!
THIS IS WHY “LIBERTARIANISM” IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.
IT FAILS TO ADDRESS THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE WHOLENESS OF THE ISSUES IN DEPTH.
IT PROVIDES OVERLY-SIMPLISTIC ASSESSMENTS TO CONVOLUTED PROBLEMS.
IT FAILS TO EXAMINE HISTORICAL CONTEXTS, SEEKING TO IMPLEMENT COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE “SOLUTIONS” THAT HAVE ALREADY PROVEN COMPLETE FAILURES IN THE PAST.
There’s enough projection there to put the director’s cut of Ben Hur on a screen the size of a football field.
chemjeff hardest hit.
I remember chemjeff’s radical individualist defense of socialism and insisting that not all socialists are collectivists. Which is true in a philosophical respect, but completely divorced from reality.
I think as soon as you believe in and peddle socialism outside of the immediate family you have taken a giant shit on reality.
No more Wahoo.
http://abc6onyourside.com/sports/columbus-clippers/cleveland-indians-unveil-new-jerseys-without-controversial-chief-wahoo
There goes the last reason to ever root for something from Cleveland
Erase that bistory!
many people think the new “C” on the hat stands for Cleveland but it doesn’t stand for anything.
Enh, Moses Cleaveland probably owned slaves or something so the name has to go too.
Oh, I can think of a couple of things it could stand for.
Chief, for one
They should have replaced Wahoo with Apu.
Genius. Don’t even have to change the team’s name.
Well, the team was named after a guy (who may have been the first Native American to play pro baseball. Although, I wouldn’t mind if we went back to the Spiders. Although, if the team still existed, I think we would all have to be fans of the Cleveland Barons. Hell, that logo almost matches our own.
And they could get sponsorship from 7-11.
They should make a commercial with Chief Wahoo McDaniel looking out over the city of Cleveland and the baseball stadium with a single tear rolling down his face.
I would also accept if they had used a caricature of Lizzie Warren as their new mascot. How could anyone complain about that?
Rebranding happens all the time.
I would have sold advertising rights to the jerseys and replace the indian with crass, commercial imagery. That was I could maintain a brutal capitalist reputation and not appeared to be going woke.
“Instead it features a guitar, honoring the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which is in Cleveland. However, this is still very problematic since rock and roll was stolen from People of Color by the white supremacist patriarchy. This just illustrates how much the cis-hetero partriarcle system is entrenched in the disturbingly fascist world of professional men’s sports.” /Article that will eventually be published by someone.
* claps furiously *
ahem– *finger-snaps*
Not quite true. The Indians are still going to be selling some apparel with the Chief on it in the Cleveland area (so they can keep the Trademark active). Then there’s always the close enough shirts as well.
a bloody tomahawk and/or white scalp would sell more. jus say’n.
a bloody tomahawk and a blonde scalp would sell more
controversial Chief Wahoo
Controversial? I’d could change the name to the Cleveland Savages and make the mascot a Sioux Warrior.
Well you east coasters better watch out. Our woke progressive girl is going to give She Guevera a run for her money.
Ilhan Omar has sponsored legislation to do away with an ancient old rule against wearing hats in Congress.
Uffda. How self-unaware can Jezzies be? How close is Omar’s quote to “No one makes me back a cake but me. It is my choice–one protected by the first amendment”?
I also so hope that at least one (((Congressman))) uses the new rule to wear a yarmulke.
The Charge of the Woke Brigade as the next Congress gets ramped up will be delicious.
That’s probably the least mischievous legislation she could sponsor.
It’s going to be fun watching her back a rule change in the name of religious accommodation (rightly so) and then vote for Democratic legislation to undo RFRA.
Looks like Omar is just as bright as Occasional-Cortex. That’s a Congressional rule, not a law. You don’t introduce legislation to change a Congressional rule, you go to the Rules Committee.
Sorry, I probably wrote that wrong. It is a rule that they are trying to change. In this case I have to admit that I am dumber than Omar because I fucked up the link.
On the other hand…. This proves that the progressives love them muslims more than showy colored folks.
Over/Under on how long before some progressive writes something about how empowering it is to see a woman in a hijab in Congress?
Over/Under on how long before some progressive writes something about how empowering it is to see a woman in a hijab in Congress?
Somewhere, that article is probably already written.
It’s a shame we never got to see Paul Ryan and his backwards cap on the floor.
He’s enough of a douche to wear a cap with a flat bill and with the tags still attached.
Best way to kill astrology…
the future is female is the most retarded of slogans
So I can already see that female future on PMS…
Try “The Force is Female”.
What a fucking fraud. She’s not fit to sniff Raven Silverwolf’s dress shields.
Once again the issue comes down to government meddling. It’s a pretty well established fact that children do better, on average, in a nuclear family-type situation (there are, of course, exceptions). The nuclear family itself evolved specifically because it was the most effective way of organizing a society. Absent government coercion, people would once again organize themselves into the most efficient configurations. Some people would still choose to live other ways, which is fine. However, get rid of government subsidization and society would immediately reorganize.
Government subsidized individualism is no individualism at all.
The nuclear family itself evolved specifically because it was the most effective way of organizing a society. – it evolved due to human reproduction imo
Family is that human evolution failure that will cause the entire genus to be hunted to extinction sooner than later.
Life on earth had plateaued when females merely buried eggs from which fully-formed mini shitlords later emerged to roam the earth seeking whom they might devour. Adults’ lying around the nest to coddle hatchlings has resulted only in an artificial environment where less viable spawn would arise and require progressively more nurture; this is inefficient in that it requires extra time and heat and sustained unhappy residues such as rap and video games to emerge.
Mr Lizard will back me up on all of this!
Yes, although exact opposite happens amongst my species. All clutches are raised to a certain point and then put together in a thinning pen. They battle it out to the point where they eliminate about a third. The contest actually stops when enough are left over that wize up enough to form a fighting cooperative. Those groups are then raised together until they are fully Formed Overlords.
All clutches are raised to a certain point and then put together in a thinning pen. They battle it out to the point where they eliminate about a third.
Hmm. Sounds like my high school.
…which then cascaded down to the organization of a society. Culture is downstream of biology. It’s not to say that there *couldn’t* be other ways of organizing a family/society, but those ways didn’t happen. It’s like saying there’s no reason we *couldn’t* have had our brain in our abdomen, but we don’t.
where is trshmnstr?
HEY trshmnstr your ideas suck. You have 3 minutes to say something or this stands.
Sorry Pie, but the rules committee have rejected your time-limit.
I would have expected a less rational time limit from you. More along the lines of 3.14159265359… minutes.
I would have expected something closer to 8.5397284….
Dammit! *kicks stone and walks away in a huff*
Libertarianism has a reputation for being something you grow out of once you get real life experience. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that it makes sense on paper, but the real world is too complex for it to work.
This is indeed how most folk think, but we should always be putting this shoe on that other foot: Large, dominating government is something that only the naive could ever think would work well. It might make sense on paper, but the real world is too complex for it to work: if you want your life pocked by ubiquitous failures like potholes, intelligence failures, and hanging chads, moar government will get you there.
Who cares about government working well when you objective is for government to fuck the people that might have it better than you over so you can feel less shitty about your own condition?
I mean if all I choose to do is play X-Box or PS4 all day while you work your ass off to make big money, why should I be forced to live in momma’s basement while you get to bang hawt chicks?
Modern feminism = a retarded fat girl with purple hair trying to start fights with men because she knows most of them will be reluctant to hit her back,
It’s always the angry ugly ones that are feminists and complain that men want to take advantage of them….
You could always claim that you thought she was a trans-man when you put her lights out.
I don’t get it. What’s her plan when she runs into the one dude who doesn’t give a fuck?
Victim jackpot
and some missing teeth 😉
I once made the mistake of trying to break up a fight between a friend and another scenester. I ended up getting that roundhouse punch to my own face. And that was the last time I tried to stop an altercation. At least my friend later apologized.
I think she was counting on the mob to have her back. It seemed liked she started checking over her shoulder for backup once the dude started pushing back on her.
Also, we are raising our young men poorly. Someone should have decked her long before the police showed up.
Someone should have decked her long before the police showed up.
her parents 10 years ago could not be reached for comment.
This is getting so tedious. Just start killing each other already.
she knows most of them will be reluctant to hit her back,
Well, the rule is don’t hit a woman. It says nothing about shooting.
Notice that men won’t even look at her unless she’s actively swinging at them. She’s crazy and nobody wants to deal with it.
Oh the answer would certainly be community of some sort but it is hardly obvious at all that it would be anything resembling the traditional nuclear family. You would be FAR more likely to see something akin to mutual aid societies than conversion of the bulk of single parent households into nuclear 2 parent families. Especially given that since these (predominantly) relatively poor women with children have relatively little to offer to entice a man who is capable of supporting a family and raising children when he could easily find a woman who does not currently have children and is not poor. Single Fathers and Mothers would likely pair up on a more frequent basis but there are not enough single fathers for more than a tiny fraction of the single mothers.
There is also the issue that the world of today is not the world of the past, we are very rapidly approaching the point where enough wealth is being diverted to pay for freeloaders of various types and the effects of automation are creating a less equal distribution of what wealth is created that for parents who lack the skills to work in high tech or other high paying career fields even 2 incomes will be a stretch and so they are going to need a “family” with 3 or more adults so they can have multiple wage earners and still have 1 “parent” to stay behind and take care of the kids. In the scenario you set up I can very easily see 3 – 4 single mothers getting together and forming a blended “family” along just these lines.
None of this challenges your points about radical individualism (which I think go to far, there is nothing which prevents a radical individualist from acknowledging they need help from others or accepting being part of a community so long as that association is voluntary) but it does challenge the very conservative notion that there is only one acceptable or working model of a family.
It won’t be just the parents having to foot the bill for their kids.
Once Social Security craps out and the payments stop a lot of geezers are going to have to move back in with their kids.
The great joy of retirement planning. I prefer to make my plans as if I will not receive a single dime of SS money (I’m only 1.35 Evans old). I had at least one financial planner ask why I was taking such a pessimistic view of SS while my investment risk tolerance is extremely high.
Because if I count on getting that money, and don’t, there’s no going back. If I don’t count on getting the money, and get something, that means my retirement is better. I can find ways to spend more money, it’s a lot harder to find places to cut spending.
“I had at least one financial planner ask why I was taking such a pessimistic view of SS”
I hope you fired him because he can’t do basic math.
Agreed. Most of our investments are handled via one of the “majors” and our advisor (~same age in Evans as Nephilium) is clear that he doesn’t anticipate SS upon retirement.
I decided not to use his services.
You are assuming they let that happen. Nice 401k ya got there but you know retirement accounts are racist and sexist because only white males could afford to sufficiently fund them so we have this new plan. Your 401k gets taken over and managed by the government and in return the government guarantees you and everyone else a living wage in retirement. Sorry, no opt outs, that would be racist. Also the courts have already ruled, this is not an illegal taking as you are getting something of value in return.
^^^This. They are already laying the groundwork to confiscate private retirement accounts.
Yes.
“You cannot base a society on a concept that, if practiced by all, would result in the extinction of your society within one generation.”
Disagree. So would Lewis. Didn’t you read the Abolition of Man? If that Roman dude convinced every single member of a generation that the Republic was worth dying for, that would result in the extinction of their society. *some* of the young men have to believe that, but *some* have to favor other virtues including survability.
You know what happens when too many young men are willing to die for their country? The Marne. Verdun. Gallipoli. Specifically, a whole generation of French and British men of virtue where killed off. There’s a strong case to be made that this lead to the French cultural change that lead to them folding like a cheap suit in WWII. Its not hard to imagine England doing the same thing in a parallel world.
Most entrepreneurial adventures have a negative expected value. When a small subsection of the population takes on entrepreneurial risk that is partitioned from the rest of the population, society reaps the rewards without bearing the full cost. If everyone was an entrepreneur, society would crumble.
We need some loggers, some soldiers, some SAHM, etc. We don’t want *everyone* to do that. We want many families following conventional norms while some malcontents and eccentrics go and search for ways of living follow a greater moral code.
>> imagine England doing the same thing in a parallel world
or right now
“You know what happens when too many young men are willing to die for their country? The Marne. Verdun. Gallipoli. Specifically, a whole generation of French and British men of virtue where killed off. There’s a strong case to be made that this lead to the French cultural change that lead to them folding like a cheap suit in WWII. Its not hard to imagine England doing the same thing in a parallel world.”
I’m in 100% agreement with this. The follies of WWI crippled France for a generation. If England didn’t have the Channel to defend them, I think they would have been rolled over too. Even so, the Battle of Britain was a pretty near thing that could have gone the other way if different decisions had been made in Berlin.
OT tangent: It’s hard to sum up Europe in a few sentences, but I’d put it this way:
a/ France lost a generation of fathers to WW1, so there was barely a generation of sons conceived to fight WW2 (even though they out-sired the UK!)
b/ Knowing this and then reflecting upon the arc of military technology (which France basically invented anyway and was very comfortable with), they went all in on a few devices and edifices that might cope with future German belligerence
c/ When Maginot etc failed, they lost that bet catastrophically; this failure could not have been otherwise than acute and total.
I write this to defend (pardon the pun) Frenchmen as no less spirited or manly than the Czechs and other conquered peoples of that time. It seems as if I’m always reading of French cowardice or incompetence; maybe we would remember them more fondly if they had charged the Panzers on horseback, swords drawn like some Poles did. We know that France lost heavily thrice in just seven decades, but that doesn’t mean that they made no earnest and hearty effort to defend themselves.
I agree with all of this. The French were not particularly unmanly or cowards. They just had all the manly and brave Frenchmen machine gunned, leaving the other kind of guy to deal with an apparently-unstoppable hyper-efficient machine of death rolling in.
It would be like if Kyle Reese was replaced with Steve from Accounting.
Well, I’m not sure I’d go that far. France actually had better tanks than the Wehrmacht did, but their tactics were terrible and their commanders, Gamelin and Weygand, were a disaster. It is true, of course, that the French suffered immensely in the Great War and their failures in WWII were often rooted in the memory of that earlier war.
Again, we can’t really adjudicate the twentieth century in this tiny medium, but I want to minimize personalities where they’re irrelevant; for example, we wouldn’t argue that the collapse of the Norman shore proves that Rommel was incompetent. . . much more was going on.
I’m not defending the French high command’s efforts in the field, I’m saying they were largely irrelevant in the face of the major dynamic at play: their fortress was compromised by a world-class organization that was designed and practiced perfectly for that purpose; that’s what I meant by “all-in” and “acute and total.” The Wehrmacht ran a corner blitz (literally!), and there was no blocking back or quick out available; once the quarterback is sacked, it hardly matters what routes which the receivers ran thereafter.
“thrice”
nam?
I’m lazily lumping in 1870 with the world wars. I’ve been all over France and Germany and know the hazards of collectivizing, say, Bavarians to Germans or Alsatians to French, but it’s at least 61% fair.
https://www.npr.org/2018/11/19/669179600/nissan-chairman-ousted-amid-investigation-over-financial-misconduct
Ghosn is a titan of industry. I don’t know what legal or personal failings he might have, but he is the King Midas of automotive; I’ve worked with almost all his divisions (save Mitusbishi), and they improved in leaps and bounds over the past two decades due entirely to his managerial touch . . . while Toyota held steady, GMC fell apart, VW went sideways, FIAT extended its incompetence to trucks and agriculture, and Daimler bungled most of the new ideas it had.
I was sad to see that.
Apparently being king of everything isn’t enough.
Ghosn is a titan of industry.
Ghosn doesn’t strike me as an embezzler or tax cheat. I cannot help wondering if these are technical reporting violations of corporate assets at his disposal (travel on company aircraft, for example).
The WSJ reported this:
Prosecutors alleged that Mr. Ghosn understated the amount of his compensation by tens of millions of dollars over a period of five years, causing Nissan to include incorrect information in filings to the Tokyo Stock Exchange.
how is that possible? it’s not like Nissan’s paying him under the table. any stock options would be public. Nissan has a team of accountants producing quarterly and annually audited financial statements.
Nissan itself investigated:
That legacy is under threat after Nissan said Monday that it is seeking to oust him following a monthslong board investigation. Mr. Ghosn has been detained by police in Tokyo. Nissan said its probe found that he allegedly worked with another executive to underreport his compensation in securities filings and misused company assets and investment funds. Mr. Ghosn hasn’t responded to the claims.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/carlos-ghosns-legacy-shaken-by-misconduct-probe-1542655471?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1
Nissan’s CFO retired in May at the ripe old age of.. 54?
http://www.autonews.com/article/20180518/OEM02/180519779/nissans-54-year-old-cfo-retires
He’s probably got more lawyers than his accusers, so either
* it’s bogus and he’ll fight it for decades
* it’s true and he’ll just pay the fines and interest and then retire quietly
Hmmm. “Tens of millions” is a lot of helicopter rides and nights in the corporate suite.
Utopia update.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6405051/Murder-rate-soars-Venezuela-forcing-population-extreme-precautions-amid-shortages.html
Speaking of family, my kid sister just pinged me to mooch a ride to the Turkey Trot 5K this year. She owns a car. She can afford gas. Her house is in a place that is extremely inconvenient for me to pick her up from.
WTF?
I may be a dick and make one of my kids drive over to pick her up. Why should I be the only family member to be inconvenienced?
Right now, I have no sympathy for any philosophical system that binds me to my crazy family.
Get her an Uber/Lyft gift card?
sounds like somebody has a suspended license they’re not telling you about.
Doubt it. She didn’t ask for a ride to an aunt’s house for dinner later that day. And that would be less irksome because it would be sort of on the way.
What irks me most is that her place is on the opposite side of the race from me. So I will have to drive past the race, get her, turn around and drive back to the race.
Weirdly, I think it is just because she likes me and my family and wants to spend more time with us. Who does that?
Sounds like a new contender for the worst. You know what you must do. Show her *why* she shouldn’t want to spend more time with you.
So, we should be expecting to meet Pope Jimbo’s sister?
Well, we could use more chicks around here…
Maybe this is all a ploy to get to you come to the Turkey Trot and cheer for her and be there for her as she accomplishes something. Maybe she just wants her big brother to be proud of her.
If we let our women dance with strange men unchaperoned, they’ll give in to their unconquerable lusts and the republic is doomed.
Dammit. This is not supposed to go there.
Although it is sort of apropos.
I’m not sure about the republic, but whatever poor bastard asks her to dance is probably doomed.
So I’ll go chaperone her for his sake.
Kind, reasonable words uttered by SF? ::looks around for the hidden camera::
Unpredictability can be a powerful weapon.
I’m running in the race too. In fact I am the one who convinced her to run this year (OK, she is going to walk with my daughter).
She’s a lot more humanlike than I am, so you might be onto something with your theory about there being some strange emotional component to all of this.
“Why do these humans who emerged from the same womb as me keep speaking to me???”
I’ve always maintained that I was adopted (or stolen at birth) so I’m not even copping to the “emerged from the same womb” bit.
No way that I – the apex of evolution – was produced by two goofs like my parents. And if by some fluke it was true, you think my sister would have turned out better. She is exactly what you would expect the kid of two goofs to be.
Another alternative is to Just Say NO.
1) She’ll tattle to my mother
2) I still feel guilty for some of the childhood things I did to her (mostly for tattling) when we were kids.
2) I still feel guilty for some of the childhood things I did to her (mostly for tattling) when we were kids.
As a Pope, you should be able to absolve yourself.
I feel ya. My sister can’t stand me, but it never stops her from calling when she needs something moved.
/happy to spend Thanksgiving with the in-laws.
I have two brothers that I only get to see maybe once a year. I would be happy to pick one of them (well, mostly my older brother) up to go to a run. /maybe not an aspie
My God you guys have this down to an art.