This week, the Supreme Court (or SCOTUS, for the cool kids / kids who don’t like to type long words), released their opinion in the case of Masterpiece Cakeshop V Colorado Civil Rights Commission. Because it’s 2018 and up is down, white is black, and the Black Panther is an Alt-Right parable, SCOTUS rules that the Colorado Civil Right Commission technically lived up to their name and violated someone’s civil rights. Kids, this is why you call your fundraiser the “Race for the Cure” not the “Walk for Cancer.”
Everyone expected a bombshell, and most people think this decision was a dud. Everyone was expecting something along the lines of ‘No, you can’t force someone to bake that cake.’ What we got instead was a ruling that said the Civil Rights Commission clearly hates religious people and therefor their finding is thrown out.
I’m going to try to convince you that, for us weirdos, this may be a very important dud. Well, no. That’s too optimistic. I’m going to try to convince you it should be a very important dud, but it probably won’t be.
In broad strokes, Justice Kennedy wrote an opinion a few years ago requiring the government to recognize gay marriage. He threw in some language that people with religious objections might be wrong, but they aren’t evil. In standard Kennedy style, it was long on rhetoric and short on formal logic. Which is OK. It’s a style. But it’s one that makes it easy to ignore the parts you don’t like.
And boy howdy, did our finger-wagging betters ignore that part. But Kennedy really meant it. I’ll get back to that in a second. First, a diversion.
When thinking about history, context is king. Why does the First Amendment call out freedom of religion separately and additionally with freedom to assemble? Same reason we have the Second Amendment. The Founders knew their history and knew what went down in the British Civil Wars. What happened? Well, lots of wars. Some of it over state suppression of religion.
And it was very clear to the Founders. People will die for their religion. Worse, they’ll kill their neighbors over it. Better to take it off the table.
Over the next couple hundred years, this has mostly worked out for us libertarian and libertarian-adjacent folks. Sure, it’s not logically consistent to call out one kind of moral code and not another. It probably riles up the kind of libertarians who can spell deontological on the first try. But in the cause of liberty, I think religion has been a net positive. Martin Luther was a professor of theology. Martin Luther King was a reverend. An open and vibrant market in churches leads to better churches and a more vibrant religiosity of the population compared to state religion.
And, for the most part, we could rely on the legislative and executive branches of governments to protect generic mainline Protestant freedoms. Sorry Catholics, no public schools or wine on Sundays for you!
But the winds of change have been blowing, as anyone who read a newspaper after Obergefell could see. Legislatures and executives are now more protective of the new mainline morality: left of center secularism. The court, as we see in Obergefell, is good with this. In fact, they push farther than the other branches sometimes. How should we feel about this, as libertarians and libertarian-adjacent folk?
I think in principle, it’s probably a net win for liberty if it’s handled as a limit on state power. Let’s face it, “don’t shit on people with fringe theories of morality” is probably an abstract idea that we should be able to get behind. We’ve got fringy theories sometimes.
In practice, not so much. We aren’t seeing left-of-center-secularism leading to restraint on government. Instead, the whip is now lashing in a different direction. Surprise, surprise: the left-of-center is now motivated by animus and using state power to score points in the culture war. This is my shocked face.
I said Obergefell was kind of rhetorical. It was. It was lofty and nice. It was nice to people with deeply held religious opinions. “Many who deem same-sex marriage to be wrong reach that conclusion based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises, and neither they nor their beliefs are disparaged here.” Most people skipped right over that and made with the disparaging. But they shouldn’t have. See, Kennedy has a very particular and idiosyncratic idea about how the government should relate to the populous. He thinks it shouldn’t be a tool of animus, used to beat down your political opponents. Crazy, right?
But this puts us in a funny spot. We have two big decisions that should work together. One says you can’t craft laws that oppress people just because your religion tells you to. One says you can’t act in a way that oppresses people just because you think they are scum.
I’m… I’m totally good with that. If we could use that as the basis for some formal logic, that takes us places. Polygamy laws were clearly put in place because people had religious differences with the Mormons and because people thought they were scum. Lots of zoning is pretty clearly an effort to keep ‘those people’ away from us nice folk, for various values of those and nice. Nixon started the drug war because he hated those long hair hippies always talking about peace and love and brotherhood and voting Democrat.
Do I think this is going to happen? Do I think SCOTUS is going to say that any of these rules were motivated by animus and should be thrown out? Nope. Kennedy isn’t all about that formal logic, and those in the know think he’s going to retire soon. And this is a test that is somewhere between mostly impossible and impossible to apply. All you have to do is mouth the right words if you are a public official. But there’s worse principals than “you can’t use government to crap on people.”
So I’m going to sit on my silver cloud here, and say that we are probably in a better place for liberty than we were last week. Even if not by much.
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( . ) . )
Everyone expected a bombshell, and most people think this decision was a dud. – and the rest couldn’t even. They were literally shaking.
Good article and I agree. This was a win but not a big one.
I can’t think of a more important reason for Trump to be in office for another seven years and team red in charge of the Senate than the SCOTUS. Constitutionalists holding a majority is probably the only hope we have of retaining at least some shreds of the Constitution.
Generally, when you didn’t lose, it meant you won.
I don’t consider a draw to be a win and this was close to a draw, but I’ll take it.
I guess non-binary outcomes are possible in some human endeavors.
Why so heteronormative, shitlord?
It probably riles up the kind of libertarians who can spell deontological on the first try. – I have a spell check and don’t really like the notion of religion over “I don’t wanna” but I acknowledge it helped. I wish it was not needed though.
Nice article.
Good article. A nice breakdown of the ruling. Later I’m going to re-read it and explore the links. (honest!)
*looks around at the on-topic posts*
*wanders off-topic*
Babe’s Fried chicken and overnight phone storage. Works best if you have more than one person, because they provide a lot of sides.
But they offer pies instead of cake.
found your phone? faith in humanity restored?
If I had found my phone at the place I thought I had lost it, I would have re-evaluated my opinion of the people there. Since it wasn’t even lost at that location, I have no new data other than what was previously observed.
The place it did turn up, not stealing it in case the owner turned up registered as ‘in-character’ from the initial assessment.
I’m just happy that I’m spared horrible inconvenience and the loss of $40 – $300 in replacement costs.
During the shitstorm that was the “bathroom bill” springsteen and the ncaa both refused to play in Charlotte. Are we to assume, that prior to this ruling, Charlotte could have sued?
That’s different because shut up bigot.
THHHpttt!
It would be nice to see someone/anyone use the lefts’ tactics against them.
Charlotte should have counted their blessings.
You are aware college basketball is a big deal in North Carolina?
I’m aware that college jingoism is a big deal in southeast amongst feudalist assholes.
I don’t think so, and I think that’s a great question that exposes the hypocrisy of public accommodations laws. Being part of “red tribe” or “blue tribe” is not a protected class. But most people think of it as being an immutable (or hard to mutilate) aspect of a person or group of people.
It would be… inconvenient.. for those governments to say “This group isn’t engaging in business with us, on account of our religious principals, as expressed by our new laws, which would be unconstitutional if they were passed in an effort to endorse a particular religious observation.”
More interesting (interesting means expensive to pay a lawyer to figure it out) is if there’s a hook for the current public accommodations laws for the arena/stadium owners that had a show/tourny booked. Then the tallent pulls out because of a political choice made by the government in the same local (which the arena/stadium owner may not agree with, etc). I have no idea on that.
UCS started it.
Derp but prog on prog derp. Some good eatin’ here.
http://theweek.com/articles/777349/democrats-are-totally-blowing
“Democrats are totally blowing”
Go on…
I had to double check that I had the whole link. That’s gold, Jerry. Gold.
“Because of the GOP’s ongoing inability to fund the federal government of the United States for more than five minutes at a time,”
This should read, “because of Congress’s inability to pass more than temporary spending bills for more than ten years…”
“because of both Congress and the public’s unwillingness to acknowledge that the country is spending itself into oblivion…”
Oh, I agree with this. But the author of the piece was criticizing Rs for not passing a budget bill when no one has passed a budget bill in decades.
“While both Trump and his congressional allies remain staggeringly unpopular,”
If only it could be quantified with something like… hmmmm… just spitballing here… a 49% approval rating.
“Nobody *I* know likes him!”
That means 51% disapprove. That’s a majority.
If a 49% approval rating is staggeringly unpopular, then Saint Obama was staggeringly unpopular for a big chunk of His reign.
Said in jest of course. I’ll be curious to see how popular Obama is in say, 20 years.
Great article, Leap – thanks!
I think it’s a lame decision that punts on the larger issue. Personally, and I’m a fringe libertarian weirdo whose ideas would never fly with the great unwashed masses, I’d like to see *all* anti-discrimination laws and regulations invalidated and return to “I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason”. If there are racists that refuse to serve black people, their loss since they’re missing out on potential profits. Same goes for any other “protected class”. Of course that’ll never happen and we’ll continue spaghettifying these rules until eventually we just have some kind of star chamber that rules on these things case-by-case depending on what direction the Kulturkampf winds are blowing.
Silver lining: Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid will probably nuke the economy before that happens so it’ll be minor in comparison.
so you are saying access to big tits is a civil right?
Can we change the adjective ‘big’ to ‘attractive’? There are those that can be described as ‘big’ but are attached to people you wouldn’t want to go near.
It’s implied.
She has big tits. (SFW)
*barf*
so you are saying access to big tits is a civil right?
Cathy Newman? Is that you?
#metoo. Public accommodation, even for a noble cause, is an assault on property rights, full stop.
Freedom of association (which includes freedom to not associate) is less a preoperty right and more a natural one. And that is what public accomodation laws trample
Can’t it be both?
I’m with you on the freedom of association bit. Freedom of association necessarily extends to property, as entering into some sort of relationship with regard to property (selling something, lending something, etc.) is a form of association. I’m loath to make a consequentialist argument for freedom of association because I believe it’s so fundamental a right that there isn’t an outcome that could justify normalizing its violation.
“But but but! What about the racists and bigots who will use their hate to discriminate?”
… Well, don’t shop there if it bothers you so much, idjit. Honestly, if you are a business owner and you really, seriously refuse to sell to people because of the color of their skin or which gender they are, etc., not only are you missing out on those potential customers, but also customers who find your policy distasteful. Then again, maybe your business attracts folks who hate the same people you do.
What’s so wrong about letting asshole business owners be assholes–and letting them live with the consequences of their assholery?
I refuse to believe that in a world where a bad Yelp review will sink a restaurant overnight oppressed people would just shrug sadly and decide they don’t really need a wedding cake or whatever that badly anyway.
Which was the whole point of Jim Crow laws. It wouldn’t have existed in anything but a minor form except for government intervention.
This is what I always tell people when they bring up Jim Crow. It was a problem *created* by the government, so it’s disingenuous to claim that the government solved a problem that was created by itself. If the government had never gotten involved, businesses discriminating against blacks would have eventually disappeared anyway because they would have gotten wise to the market they were missing out on; either that or gone out of business.
And the racists and racist businesses were losing out.
It’s just like grocery stores that support bag bans and bag fees, so long as all of their competitors are equally hamstrung.
Or maybe they wouldn’t even but other businesses would rise up and fill the void catering to the needs of blacks
I really, really, really wish my competition were bigoted assholes. I would have a lot more money.
I want bigots to operate in the open so that I know who they are and can adjust my shopping patterns accordingly.
The whole point of passing laws is to force other people to do what you want, especially if those other people disagree with you. Just leaving them alone is simply not an option that leaves room to profit off their misery.
Seriously. These people need to consider the popularity of Yelp, and how fast the word of somebody in a coffee shop refusing to let a black guy use a bathroom gets around…
Good article.
The thing that bothers me is how much some elements of the population really do want to use the government to crap all over people. Where the hell did we get to the point where people were so goddamned petty and vindictive. I mean, even someone who wants to use the government to leach or steal off others probably has moral superiority (even if not by much). At least they’re out to get something positive out of it for themselves by screwing people over. The others want to screw people over out of pure malice.
The only thing new is the willingness to use it against people who refuse to participate in an activity.
The usage of government to crap all over people engaging in unapproved, non-violent, and none of your business, activity is a long standing tradition.
>The thing that bothers me is how much some elements of the population really do want to use the government to crap all over people. Where the hell did we get to the point where people were so goddamned petty and vindictive.
Actually, I think that this is the natural order of things, and that the post WWII / post Cold War cooling of the culture war in the US was the aberration. This might just be us returning to normal.
It certainly trending that way in politics, despite the wishes of the establishment for a consensus fuck buddy Ralph and Sam situation.
The thing that bothers me is how much some elements of the population really do want to use the government to crap all over people.
As I like to express it, “The State is the biggest bully of them all.”
Bullying is one of the big moral panics going on, but when it’s the state doing the bullying, suddenly most people’s opinions change dramatically.
“Many who deem same-sex marriage to be wrong reach that conclusion based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises, and neither they nor their beliefs are disparaged here.”
To be sure.
Now get in that kitchen and bake me a cake.
It’s oppressive to be told, “Please, take your business to one of my competitors, and I’m sorry.”
It’s not oppression to a told, “Too bad, you signed away your rights of conscience when you applied for a business license, and you’re in for a world of hurt for thinking otherwise.”
The nearest receptive competitor to Masterpiece was a tenth of a mile away. I don’t believe for a second Masterpiece wasn’t targeted for shakedown by the complainants, but even assuming good faith on their part, they chose to put Masterpiece through the ringer to assuage their hurt feelings. Now, I’m no Lorax for the Christians—I’m not one, and in any event, I’m not qualified to opine learnedly on their behalf—but I’m given to understand the Christian objection to gay marriage is not predicated on animus toward gay people. Indeed, the baker in the masterpiece argued for being willing to serve the couple in any capacity but this one. But even assuming bad faith on his part, this couple suffered only the minor indignity of not being liked by a stranger, and having to take their dollars to his competitor.
The two outcomes, and the stakes involved, are nowhere near equal, and it’s obvious that bringing these suits is entirely a matter of punishment rather than principle. But we’re supposed to belive that Christians risking their livelihood and social stature over deeply-held beliefs are intolerable bigots, while kulturkampf Nazis ferreting them out for punishment are motivated only by justice.
Not only that, but as a practical matter, why would you want a cake made by someone who has more of an incentive to screw it up or spit in it?
Because it was never about the cake. It’s about hate. Hate the gay couple had for the baker for not wanting to serve them. The cake is a lie.
Would a sammich suffice?
“The thing that bothers me is how much some elements of the population really do want to use the government to crap all over people.”
Until they’re the ones getting crapped on and then it’s government oppression.
Great Article Leep! I personally see this ruling as kicking the can down the road; a small victory but not a decisive one. Anyone been over on TOS lately. Are the woketarians wailing and shaking their fists at the sky?
To be sure.. kicking the can down the road is the goal of the Roberts Court. Their judicial philosophy is very much in a style of judicial conservationism (nothing to do with political left/right) that they they make the narrowest ruling possible and let the lower courts / political branch / culture sort it out.
This has been, generally, a cluster fuck, for the nation. No new 2nd amendment cases in years while the lower courts ‘fight it out.’ No clear direction on WOTUS, which is badly needed ever since the Obama administration decided that basically and land that was once rained on is a WOTUS.
The only thing they seem to want to take a stand on is qualified immunity. FML.
Yes, they have been pretty consistent and forceful that police are above the laws they enforce.
“Their judicial philosophy is very much in a style of judicial conservationism”
AKA: Being a bunch of cowardly cucks.
Public accommodation, even for a noble cause, is an assault on property rights, full stop.
But intentions trump results.
Comcast voice is out again today. Really messing up my work day.
I have always supported people entering into contracts with whomever they choose to enter into contracts with because freedom of association. Marriage is a contract. I do not support, and never have, forcing people to bake cakes because free association.
This tells me that the whole leftist gay marriage/gay cake issue is not about principle.
To be fair, the Supreme Court isn’t about principle either. Most of the time, it’s about expedience and convenience.
Hey the Frankfurt School has principles! -Burn it all down, crush your enemies under your boot, rule over the ashes.
The principle is ME FIRST
This is my new fetish
This is mine.
“watching 2 leftists, neither of whom has actually listened to or read peterson at all, talk with expertise about his awful alt-right ideas”:
i could fap to that.
So hawt.
. . . the affect most palpable in Peterson’s public appearances is melancholy . . .
It’s due to his perception that the world is filled with witlings like you, Liza.
My guess is a lot of the people here share Peterson’s “melancholy”. You can only pound your head on the desk so many times due to people’s stupidity and arrogance so many times without seeming a little depressed.
To whit:
would be the shortest conversation in the world.
“No, you see; my philosophy is so much better because, just let the government handle everything, and they can make people behave the proper way! Wait-where are you going?”
“I fell into an instant and deep connection with a man while on a work trip. I’m happily married, so there’s no chance of a romantic future, but the friendship has been, and is, enlivening. We share many interests, but mostly we have an easy understanding—something slow and patient and unusual in this world. We occasionally talk on the phone about life, and we’re looking forward to having lunch when our paths cross again next month.”
Happily married me arse. Textbook example of an incipient affair.
Reminds me of an old Greaseman bit.
Maybe a story about his daddy? Certainly not the 6-Minute Workout.
For clarity: my fetish is the man weeping in shame, and his woman being like, “don’t be such a fucking baby”, not the farting-during-sex itself.
OK. So, “cuck porn”, not “fart porn”, yes?
Offtopic unlike the chinese crap i mentioned in the linx kilchoman sanaig aint bad
A confluence of an earlier article this week here about CrossFit and the gay cake decision, what with this being “pride” month:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/07/gym-chain-crossfit-caught-up-in-lgbtq-rights-controversy.html
That situation is a confusing mess. On the one hand the gym owner has every right to cancel any Pride events or refuse to hold them at his gym, since the certification is just that; a certification he can teach you how to do one legged military presses while standing on a giant rubber ball. On the other hand, the Exec that got fired shoulda known better. And on the gripping hand I imagine culture war stuff should result in a backlash from Christians who agree with Russell because tit-for-tat works. On the other gripping hand a pox on all their house.
OT but I want to announce to you all that I am now part of the #metoo movement. I was running with my shirt off yesterday and a bunch of female prisoners cutting weeds cat-called me. I’m not sure if I’ll ever recover.
Crying Game dude, crying game….
You poor man. I feel you.. Once in college I was riding my bike, and standing up on the pedals going up hill as I passed a group of hot sorority girls in short skirts and babydoll t-shirts with their sorority letters on them. One of them reached out and grabbed my butt while saying, “Nice ass!”.
I was so traumatized I had to turn around and ask her out.
Time for another #whynotme?
Your story is better……there were no Piper Chapmans in that work crew
Alas, that was many years ago.
This is probably a PNW thing, but anyone who thinks women won’t ‘harass’ men, just needs to follow a half-way attractive guy wearing a kilt to a bar or beer festival or the like and listen / watch for the number of attempted ‘Are you wearing it properly?’ kilt checks he has to deal with.
*orders kilt*
A girl slapped my ass just last week at work. I find it very unprofessional, but I’m not going to make a big deal out of it.
“Yeah? You wanna take it out sometime?”
Pasty white is the new black?
According to that one OKCupid article, it just might be.
That articles scans. My wife always points out Asian women with white men, I’m not really sure why.
She wants a bedroom playtoy, obvs.
*faints from joy*
You’re going to have to up your training regimen if reading comments makes you light headed. Those fields are a gonna take a lot of ploughing. 😉
. . . Asian women with white men . . .
A sight more common here in the Lower Rainland™ than sushi restaurants. Such unions generally produce screamingly good-looking kids.
+1 Roaming Millennial
You’re not kidding. My buddy married a hot Japanese woman and their kids are all in college now and super attractive.
My Korean cousin married a very heroic mulatto and they have generated some astonishingly beautiful kids, as well.
I’m the reverse (white woman with Japanese man) and our son is way better looking than either of us. If he works out just a little in high school, he’ll have no shortage of interest (once he gets out of the dorkily oblivious stage, at least).
It’s a joke in Hawaii that half-n-half kids are either beautiful or ugly, there’s no in between and each kid is a flip of the coin.
What I found most interesting from that post is that the preference is actually stronger by Asian women for white men than vice versa. Would not have expected that.
Inverse of the car washing scene from “Cool Hand Luke”.
You know the rules, Bob. Were they hot? If not, you were sexually assaulted.
Loved the article
But any USSC decision that doesn’t reduce to “fuck off because freedom/9A” is a pure distraction.
Americans still think freedom is achieved by electing their friends and imposing their values on the rest of us. Decisions like this only prove they’re right.
I don’t know how to teach freedom to autocratic SJW and SoCons, especially since I don’t want to pay for their free shot.
I’m still fucked.
This year: BAKE THE CAKE, BIGOT
Next year: OFFICIATE THE WEDDING, BIGOT
Someday soon: GAY MARRY ME, BIGOT
/John
*shudders*
Even bigots have rights that are protected by the constitution.
Get over it.
/progs heads explode
it’s obvious that bringing these suits is entirely a matter of punishment rather than principle.
Well put.
That cake is SO unoriginal.
Let me begin with 100% support for freedom of association and businesses being to deny service to anyone for any reason.
Under the current laws and not Libertopia, I wonder if the end of freedom of association can be turned against businesses that deny service to citizens carrying firearms. Surely, if a business can be forced to serve someone based on the color of their skin or the sexual orientation, then they can be forced to serve someone for exercising a constitutionally protected right?
I also wonder when we’re going to see someone sue a business for senior citizen discounts as age discrimination.
Also, back to the firearm point, fuck WhataBurger for putting armed King’s Men as a class above us mere serfs.
Great, now I’m craving a WhataBurger.
They must be different in other states. I tried the one in Gainesville twice and it was terrible both times.
I was at one today.
The food tasted like it came from Wendy’s. I don’t see why people would rave about it.
I’ve tried three different ones over a couple years in east Texas, and it was like getting a McDonald’s hamburger with more onions, no ketchup, and too much mustard. And then I see people on this very site slag off Five Guys while saying What-a-Burger is the best fast food burger on Earth. One side must be living in some alternate universe or something, I don’t know. I’m just sayin’, it’s like getting a Big Mac without the sauce, I don’t see the allure.
I haven’t had one in many years, and only in Corpus. I just looked at menu photos and they certainly don’t “look” like I remember and I recall mayo versus mustard.
Do you guys have Taco Time out there? That’s the only fast food I crave.
I think they put hyperconcentrated methane into their fried bean burritos.
Yes, we have Taco Time.
Oh god yes, we’re coming out there to visit for the next one. SP is going to suffer.
You have Taco Time? Good God, there’s a blast from my past (started back in my old stomping grounds [Edmonton, Canada] back in the early 70s . . . ). And yeah, I do remember their food having a somewhat . . . unfortunate effect on my personal greenhouse-gas contributions.
My comment’s awaiting moderation? Wha?!?
Decontamination most likely.
You seem to be unfamiliar with the constitutional underpinning of all modern jurisprudence
The FYTW clause
Get rid of state laws making it an automatic crime to carry on private property based on a posted sign.
You ask me to leave and I don’t, fine that’s trespassing.
Damn, Leap! Fitness guru and legal analyst!
Is there anything you can’t do?
“In broad strokes, Justice Kennedy wrote an opinion a few years ago requiring the government to recognize gay marriage.”
Broad strokes, indeed. What that decision did was force government to grant marriage licenses to any two adults not otherwise legally married. It did not force government to automatically recognize existing same sex marriages in which the couple were religiously wed, but not civilly so.
There are two parallel institutions of marriage in this country – state marriage and religious marriage. Most people don’t really think about this distinction because they just go through the process without any problems. Gay people were long denied civil marriage, but had access to non state-sanctioned marriages recognized within their communities. Just as did blacks during the slavery days.
Now, socons (you-know-who) dishonestly conflate this with redefining marriage. This is the state horning in on the marriage business. The silver lining of this is that socons, having lost in the courts, have suddenly realized that maybe state marriage isn’t such a good idea after all. Late and for the wrong reason, but whatever.
Good article.
Late and for the wrong reason is true of a lot of marriages.
Golf clap.
Now, socons (you-know-who) dishonestly conflate this with redefining marriage.
They are half right – it did redefine legal marriage, but not religious marriage. I note, however, that prohibitions on polygamy have been applied to people who were only married religiously, and not legally, so the boundary is porous.
But all the socon whining and butthurt was about “muh relijus oppreshunz.” I can’t recall anyone expressing outrage on behalf of the state. Certainly not here.
What really happened, as I have long said, is the state slowly coming to the realization that gay people exist, and are not objectively disordered.
Not disagreeing.
It just reminded me that the entire decision was a stolen base. You can’t get to the conclusion that not licensing gay marriage is a denial of equal protection if marriage actually means “man and woman”. You have to assume it means “any two adults”. Religions were (and still are) free to continue to define marriage as “man and woman”, although religious organizations have to knuckle under and recognize legal marriages regardless (which I think was always the case). States were always free to define it that way for licensing purposes. SCOTUS unilaterally changing the definition to “any two adults” (and it was a change) was, IMO, beyond its scope.
I think Kennedy had a vague premonition that he was handing the SJWs a club to beat their enemies, which is why he put in the caveat that he, at least, doesn’t hate religious people. It would be interesting to know if history will regard Obergefell as an inflection point in the cultural war in the US. Certainly, things have gotten nastier since then. The reasons Leap points out above on why government should handle religion with kid gloves are still true, after all.
I agree and disagree.
The Iowa Supreme Court ruled in 2009 that the state’s DOMA law violated the state constitution’s equal protection clause. So for a period of roughly half a decade, my wife and I could file a joint federal return but my brother and his husband could not even though both of our marriages had been sanctioned by a state government.
That is an equal protection problem at the federal level that SCOTUS needed to resolve.
Of course, that’s not what SCOTUS actually did anything about.
Somehow I managed to get myself moderated.
Servers and backbones all over the place are having issues. I suspect it couldn’t reach the Akismet server, so just held onto comments. Like nearly 20 of them, just on this site. More on some other sites I admin.
Oh, and, I jumped over here half expecting the site itself to be down, so….
Servers and backbones all over the place are having issues.
The End Times are upon us!
Either that, or someone’s ordering massive quantities of personal lube off of Amazon again.
It became pretty obvious there was a problem on the back end somewhere.
I’m taking my Imodium, I swear!
I’ve mentioned a couple of times how on another forum when somebody posted a “Love Wins” meme after Obergfell, I congratulated him on his support of plural marriage. The harrumphing was deafening.
I then defended myself by pointing out that gay marriage is now legal mostly because gays are (thankfully) no longer seen as icky, while nobody wants to legalize plural marriage because in America it’s only practiced by those icky fundamentalist Mormons. Needless to say, this idea wasn’t received well.
Off topic but too funny not to share:
Kamala Harris
@KamalaHarris
When disaster hits anywhere in America, our government has a basic responsibility to commit the resources necessary to save lives, accurately assess damage, and rebuild communities. We now know that after Hurricane Maria, our government failed Puerto Rico at every level.
10:21 PM – Jun 6, 2018
Got that? We need more of that entity which failed on every level!
She just wants more control. Anyone who actually wished to do the right thing for people in the path of a hurricane would forbid the government from having anything to do with it.
All good deeds must be performed by, or at least regulated by, some level of government. The populace can’t be trusted to care for themselves.
Only because the wrong top people were in charge. If the right top people were in charge it would succeed.
See also every failure of communism.
When disaster hits anywhere in America, our government has a basic responsibility to commit the resources necessary to save lives, accurately assess damage, and rebuild communities.
Does that include the government of Puerto Rico? Because that’s the government that truly fucked this up at every level.
Well done! I now need to um…actually read the opinion. Perhaps I can do it now.
Haven’t read more than excerpts, but I think this opinion could go one of two ways down the road.
It will either be a warning to governments to keep their animus against religion very well hidden (leading to a whole lot of “And Nothing Else Happened”), or it could start a line of cases that are properly equal protection cases, requiring governments to apply their laws equally regardless of the current intersectionality stack.
The latter would require that non-proggies take up one of the tools in the proggie toolkit – trolling for complaints, daring the government to force a Muslim baker, for example, to do a cake for a gay wedding or a Jewish wedding, etc., and then seeing if the government enforces its “Thou shalt cake” rule equally.
Unfortunately, your first guess is probably more likely.
As Rasilio said above it’s the FYTW clause.
I doubt it would work. Granted this was some time ago but there was a Neo-nazi who wanted to have a birthday cake made for his son Adolph. He was refused service. Spoiler alert. He lost his case.
Political views don’t put you in a protected class, so he should have lost. You have to troll for claims as a member of a protected class (race, religion, national origin, etc.).
Eh, I thought it was a pretty moderate comment, especially for this site.
“The latter would require that non-proggies take up one of the tools in the proggie toolkit”
This was already actually done in Colorado. I don’t remember the details, but it was some kind of mirror image of the Masterpiece case; and the (utterly useless activist fever swamp) CCCR ruled that (surprise, surprise) the woke baker didn’t have to bake for the deplorable customer. You can look up the details because I’m lazy.
It boils down to who is a member of a protected class.. All they have to do is claim that the plaintiff is not a member of a protected class and the case gets thrown out. You’re going to have a very hard time finding someone who is so thoroughly and unquestionably a member of a protected class that even committed partisans would have to acknowledge it and some issue over which some other protected class would want to discriminate.
If you could actually find a conservative or libertarian Jew looking for an explicitly Jewish wedding or Bar Mitzvah cake from a Muslim baker is probably your best bet. Or maybe find any pro Palestine baker and try to order a cake for a celebration of whatever the Israeli equivalent of the 4th of July is but in general you will have a hard time finding cases they couldn’t throw out because the customer was not part of a protected class or the discrimination was not for a prohibited reason.
It’s the special privileges for protected classes stuff that pisses people off. And the number of protected classes is going to increase. This is how you get more white identity agitation. The proggies know this and are scared incontinent about the alt-right, whatever that is.
Rught is already doing it. Read the whole thing. They talk about the cases of some some activist in front of the civil Rights panel. Guy wanted antigay Bible quotes on cakes and was denied.
Fun times in Little Beirut
“Call the cops. Somebody call the cops.” blah blah blah.
Hey, about you call the cops? That recording device in your hand is also a phone. But then you wouldn’t have something to post to Youtube for your grievance mongering.
El Masry called her a slur for paying with coins
Can you blame him?
Great article, I was happier about this ruling before I learned the details.
French had a good point in finding the silver lining: it could have been worse. It could have been a blunt reversal subordinating freedom of conscience to public accommodation, and thereby obliterating the former as a practical consideration. The weak-kneed nature of the ruling was likely a strategic decision to turn a 4-5/5-4 gamble into a 7-2, narrowly tailored, win.
Weirdly, I’m seeing people who are upset by this ruling specifically and skeptical/critical of the free market in general reposting this obvious free-market solution to the problem on derpbook without a hint of irony.
*hits F5* Need lynx! But since I can’t have ’em yet, I’ll post semi-on topic. My oldest friend (who’s never been married) once told me that since he’s not planning on having children, he sees no need to get married. Being divorced, and done with having kids myself, I kinda see his point. The only downside I’ve found is there are a lot of divorced women who *only* want relationships that “can lead to something more” or are “going somewhere”. What’s the fascination with marriage, and why is a relationship that won’t end up in that state such a bad thing?
I think it’s a risk-aversion thing – the assumption that a marriage, even if no progeny are expected, sets the bar for splitting up quite a bit higher than just “seeing each other”.
My next article, which I alluded to this morning, fits with this one. Especially the last sentence.
I agree with the last sentence but am going to take a more pessimistic take on it. Mathematically.