Introduction
For those of you of an AnCap mindset, this article is probably not of much benefit. But for those of us that think a minarchy is necessary (and sufficient), the discussion of how to fund a micro-state is of more interest.
Also, yes, this will be, in large part, a discussion of the Single Land Tax (SLT.) This is not the article on the SLT that I promised a year ago, but this is the one you are going to get. At least for now.
Recent discussions of the SLT have got me thinking in different ways and led me to what I needed to do. it’s the answer to almost every problem: DO THE MATH
The Auction
I. Let us start with the premise of this thought experiment. A group of libertarians discovers a previous unfound island or planet or whatever. Either way, whether on sea or through space, I am pretty sure the ship is named Der Sausagefest. This land is entirely undeveloped. Their established minarchy will never spend any money it does not already have in its coffers. The land needs to be divided in a just manner. So they decide: We will divide the land into parcels and auction off the parcels. However, the auction won’t be for the price of land, the bidding will be the amount of land tax you (or any future owners) are committing to pay on the parcel each year going forward for all eternity. The land itself will be free, and come with complete property rights, except for being encumbered with the tax.
There shall be one exception to the eternal nature of the tax: if the owner wishes to, he may forfeit the property back to the state for re-auctioning. He may decide the tax is too damn high and try to “buy” It back at a lower tax. Or he may just decide he doesn’t want it. Whatever.
The libertopian state will have a fixed income based on the initial auction. As it is sensible, the currency will be something like gold that is stable over the long term and so inflation won’t be a problem.
II. Why an auction for the tax amount instead of selling the land? Technically, they are the same thing. The price you would pay is equal to the present value of the future cash flows of the property. And the same for the tax stream, the amount you are willing to bid is a stream with the same present value. But I can think of 3 reasons that the tax is better than an upfront cost:
1. I don’t trust any state, even libertopia, with a large sum of money. Better to give them an annual income than a lump sum.
2. While the state could turn around and invest the money, generating the same income stream as the tax, that involves the state choosing investments. We have seen how well that kind of thing works with CalPERS, for example. We don’t want the state choosing winners or losers or getting some PC thing going and divesting from the hookers and blow industries.
3. This one is a little weird, and if you want to discount it, so be it. But the make-up of the initial libertopians may be diverse. Some will be flush with cash, others may be poor. While the poor could get a mortgage to pay the initial cost, that adds a level of risk that would lead to lower bidding by them. I find the stream payment to be more equitable.
I see the obvious argument against the tax vs initial purchase price idea. The former is effectively an eternal mortgage, while the latter is over and done with. But as they are mathematically equivalent, I don’t see that as an actual issue. As I said in the introduction, we have to do the math.
Application to Real Life
I. None, probably. But I was thinking about it for two reasons. First, the recent discussion in which UCS and RCDean questioned the reality of imputed value. The fact that someone will pay for undeveloped land shows that imputed value or economic rents or whatever is a real thing. Even in my scenario, people would bid a positive amount for the plots, which implies that the imputed value is, in fact, a real thing that they do value.
The second, and possibly more important, reason was that I have been thinking about what a land tax would due to the resale price of unimproved land. I came up with an answer but didn’t really like it. Hence, I had to do the math. And this gedankenexperiment was the result of that. A properly valued land value tax that was exactly at the value of the economic rents (no more and no less) would reduce the resale price of unimproved land to zero.
That isn’t actually a real life situation though, as “unimproved” land is all but non-existent. Think about an empty lot in a neighborhood. Is it unimproved? Does it have a road bordering it? That is an improvement that increases the value of the land. So is a functioning court system. And deeds that can be trusted. And national defense. While they aren’t DIRECT improvements to the land, they all increase the value of the land. Being secure in your ownership is an improvement.
In fact, it might even be a flaw in my gedankenexperiment. The landing of the spaceship Sausagefest may have improved the land. But it’s a small enough improvement that I stand behind the results.
II. So how do we get from here to there? We really can’t. Without a tyranny, we can’t take all the land and auction it off. The land has improvements anyway. It would take a series of nukes to unimprove the land. The good thing about the auction was it valued the land tax properly. If we implemented one, it wouldn’t be done that way. A rate would be set, valuations would be calculated, and a crappy fiat money system would be used that wouldn’t allow anything like a stable pricing system. Humans would be involved and they screw everything up. Plus, people did pay for their land, and some of them oppose the idea of having to pay rent on it forever, too. Even if it did mean getting rid of every other form of taxation. Like any change in the tax system, there would be winners and losers (even if overall taxation was cut to a level that we won big overall), which is why it is so hard to make a change.
The Georgist Single Land Tax is a utopian fantasy. And I still favor it over the current system or any other anyone has proposed.
The reason I find land tax horrible is that it forces people to interact in the economy against their will; that being the only way to gain the money needed to pay the tax. A world where you can’t be a hermit is no libertopia.
If you don’t pay does the minarchy come to take your land away?
I would assume so, otherwise why would anyone pay?
Because of the Social Contract!
/prog
Because
of the Social Contractwe’ll riot and loot and burn down your business and shoot you dead in the street, bourgeois pig.It’s not your land.
You have a Vivid imagination Rob, May the Suasagefest travel the Stars Forever!
Entertainment itinerary — Drinking, followed by Fighting, and followed by Fucking.
No need to dress up, it’ll just be the two of us.
STEVE SMITH RULES!
Excuse me, but how is an infinite liability mathematically equivalent to a finite expenditure?
Many infinite series converge.
What is the sum of 1+1/2+1/4+etc? it is 2.
if your time-value-of-money is at 50% per year, that is the same series.
But your indefinate tax is not a reducing set. It is 1+1+1+1…. forever.
Most human beings apply a discount rate to future money.
Exactly. Its like he didnt read the 50% time-value-of-money comment. It was poorly worded.
Discount rate was the term I was looking for.
I think the convergence is to 1/discount rate? So a 5% discount rate would converge to 20. Is that right? It has been too many decades.
The person with the largest discount rate would win the auction, ceteris parabus.
Your predicate in this thought experiment was a zero inflationary currency, so whatever misconception the person may make the actual cost is infinite.
Discount rate does not equal anticipation of inflation. It is based in the opportunity cost/benefit of money today vs. money in future. Inflation certainly impacts the discount rate, but so do anticipation of risk, and valuation of deferred gratification.
That said I agree that this scheme eliminates private land ownership and replaces it with rent under eternal leases, cancelable by the lessee at will.
So, no worse (and in my opinion, better) than what we have today.
The accounting cost is infinite. The real cost is affected by the discount rate.
The discount rate is not about inflation. Its about real value.
Think about it with non-money stuff. You have a small shovel, and you want to turn over an acre of land to plant a garden. You start turning it over with your small shovel.
Then, here are two propositions:
I’ll give you a much bigger shovel tomorrow.
I’ll give you a much bigger shovel in two days.
Which one do you take? Obviously, the shovel tomorrow. Its the same shovel, it turns over the earth at the same speed. But getting it a day early means you get more value out of it.
The discount rate is a function of whatever you would pay to get it tomorrow instead of two days from now.
The discount rate is why we don’t beggar the third world today to save the world from global warming in 500 years. Its why everyone wants to get their invoiced paid ASAP, not oh-you-know-by-the-end-of-the-quarter-or-whatever, and why everyone wants to pay their bills at the end of the quarter.
I have a feeling the discount rate would have to be 1/e or higher for it to converge, but can’t be bothered to do the match. 1/e is about 3/8.
1/x for x from 1 -> ∞, for example (the harmonic series), is divergent.
The following summation has a finite value:
Infinity
SIGMA TaxRate * (1 / (1+ DiscRate)^n) = TaxRate/DiscRate
n=0
SIGMA is the summation operator; TaxRate is the annual tax rate; DiscRate is the annual discount rate.
For example, a $1000 annual tax and a 10% discount rate has a present value of $10,000.
It is essentially the present value of a perpetuity, which is bond with infinite maturity. Such bonds were at one time sold by the British government.
As long as such an arrangement is entered into voluntarily by all parties I have no problem with it.
*first lot comes up for bid*
“I bid nothing”
“I bid 128 grains of lead for anyone who claims I owe them a ‘tax’.”
“I didn’t agree to this auction, and will not recognize the minarchy’s authority to enforce it.”
STEVE SMITH PAY LAND TAX. BY PAY MEAN…
Pfffft, like we’d get that far.
“I have this boat and want y’all to join me in sailing to found Libertopia”
“Only if I get to stear”
“No I get to stear”
“Where is my room?”
“Whaddaya mean common mess hall?”
“WHERE I CAN RAPE?”
“‘Hang on I am in a crucial internet argument and can’t leave yet”
Boat rots at moorings.
I came here to not read the article but comment anyway.
So…yeah. I guess that’s all I have to say about that.
I know you can do better than that. I believe in you.
Can we call you Honest Mike?
DOXXED
http://www.honestmikesdraincleaning.com/
Notsofunfact, the megarchy we have in my city has an ordinance where you are required to get a plumbing permit to have someone come in and clear the drains. They do so graciously have an explicit exception for use of a plunger not requiring one.
But not before getting the permission slip signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months.
“you are required to get a plumbing permit to have someone come in and clear the drains”
So while you’re waiting for some bureaucrat to stamp a form, your bathtub completely fills with sewage.
Potentially, but I’d wager they have graciously set up a process for emergency retroactive permits that the plumbers have to pay that gets tacked onto the bill.
This is why we need Top. Men. To think of smart things like this.
Got shit in your pipes? Honest Mike will suck it out!
Honest Mike’ll clean your pipes no matter how long it’s been!
“Hi, I’m Honest Mike. I’ve been layin’ pipe for over 20 years.”
HI HONEST MIKE. I’M STEVE SMITH. ME TOO!
There is so much hate for Georgists here that I’m glad this article was attempted. Well done, robc.
I will add this article that Jeffrey Tucker recently wrote called “The Amazing Influence of Henry George”
https://www.aier.org/article/amazing-influence-henry-george-ec-harwood#.Wt4m6Mkfb1Q.facebook
I don’t hate Georgists, I hate one of their ideas. On the whole, they’re good and have made some valuable contributions. Just because I despise the idea of the primacy of the bishop of Rome, doesn’t mean I hate the Catholic church. Same thing.
I have only ever heard one of their ideas. So I have no opinion beyond the land tax being evil.
Yes I know we have a land tax now, that too is evil and needs to be abolished.
No, we dont. We have a property tax now.
Land is property.
Twist your logic however you like. All property is finite, land can be created. It is property, so the difference between a property tax and a land tax is a semantic balm for your conscience.
*land can be created to the same limits of matter in the universe the render every other type of property efectively finite.
Ironically, the Catholic Church and Henry George disagreed when it came to private property. The Church holds it as a natural right, whereas Georgists hold that no one person can truly “own” property.
I tend to think Henry George was probably closer to being correct than GK Chesterton when it comes to private property
Based upon your summation (which is the entirety of my reading on the matter) I agree with the Church.
Now, keep your mitts off my stuff.
Allow me to take the deeply unpopular position of asserting that “private property” is not a natural right, but rather a “civil right” (as in a right not granted by birth such as a “natural right”, but rather one necessary for the establishment of a free society). You aren’t endowed with property and while participation in commerce is covered under the natural right of “association”, property rights can only be guaranteed by some authority or individual force. The question then arises should only those able to muster the force necessary to secure private property be the only ones allowed to hold property? Or, as a “civil right” should we provide property protections for all through some minarchist state?
Agreement with the latter statement almost necessitates some tax on the land. Either a tax on the sale of the land or a continuing tax or something else.
A one-time deed recording fee at time of transfer is within the bounds of acceptability. Dispute resolution could be funded by the parties at court.
Hero: Hey, that’s my land!
Gates: Sorry kid, it’s my land.
Hero: I’ve got a gun.
Gates: I’ve got a fucking army.
Hero: Fine. Let’s go to arbitration.
Gates: Fine, but I don’t do half assed arbitrators. I only agree to use one that charges $1million/hour.
Hero: But that will break me financially.
Gates: Sucks to be you.
Bezos: Hero, I’ll back you if you swear fealty to House Bezos.
Hero: Hail Lord Bezos. Wait, how did our Minarchy become a Monarchy.
I think this is generally correct.
The rights to life speech and association can only be guaranteed by some auhtority or individual force. The right to property is not “I’m born therefore I get to own this partiuclar item or set of items whether or not I’ve earned them” it’s “I exist therefore I get to own what I can rightfully acquire.”
Yes, all natural rights, to be freely exercised, do require some limited amount of violence to secure that right. In the case of speech and association, though, the private sector can freely discriminate. Natural rights, which are defining characteristics of a human and are endowed at birth, are more intended to prevent the government from infringing on your natural abilities. Employing a limited government to secure private property is about preventing others from violating your contractual ownership.
Guaranteed is not the same thing as granted. You are born with the right to life and liberty period, full stop. From liberty you have by a virtual tautology the pursuit of (property/happiness). Having these rights does not mean you have life/liberty/fruits of liberty. You are mortal, can be imprisoned etc., the right is simply the normative statement that it is (immoral/unethical/wrong/sinful) for others to kill you/enslave you/take your shit.
“You aren’t endowed with property and while participation in commerce is covered under the natural right of “association”, property rights can only be guaranteed by some authority or individual force.”
The same is true of all natural rights.
Not true. I’m born with the ability to speak. I’m born with the ability to defend myself by using violence when violence is brought upon me. Etc. All these abilities preexist the establishment of society or government.
Assuming the original state of man, no one was born with a deed to land.
A natural right is a right that applies to all persons no matter what political or social situation they are in. Or you could say that there is no just society that does not respect these rights. The right to breath. The right to eat. The right to speak and to listen. The right to procreate.
A civil right is a right that only makes sense in a particular political or social scheme. Its a requirement for justice *in that scheme* but not in all schemes. Private property is one such right. Under capitalist democracy, there is no justice without property. But a Kibbutz can be a perfectly just scheme without private property (because everyone in it has the right to leave).
Is the right to vote on your school board a natural right or a civil right? Well, we know that there are just societies without any public schooling, so no school board. So its a civil right.
Is the right to go out and seek your own education a natural right or a civil right? I don’t think there’s any just society where people can be denied the ability to go educate themselves. So its a natural right.
Just Say’n. No human has ever been born with the ability to speak or defend his self. You are born with the potential to acquire these abilities, which is also true of land.
Everything is violence.
You have the right to stand where ever you are right up until someone pushes you off that spot. Either you successfully defend it (and it’s your property) or you don’t (and it’s someone else property).
If you have a right to life, then you must have a right to be someplace.
Taxes are just you paying someone else to commit violence on your behalf.
“Just Say’n. No human has ever been born with the ability to speak or defend his self. You are born with the potential to acquire these abilities, which is also true of land.”
One isn’t born with the ability to speak or defend themselves?
If it all has to do with “potential to acquire these abilities” then wouldn’t “the right to food” also be a natural right? Everyone has the potential to acquire “food”. Assigning something that is not God given, but is instead a construct of society, as a “natural right” may lead to some strange paths.
Newborns cannot speak, they are utterly defenseless, they have no property. So yes, I am in fact standing by my claim that you are only born with potential to acquire these things.
Newborns are born with the explicit design to speak. It’s not a potential- it is a given. The human vocal cords are designed to speak. No one has to teach a child how to make noises with his mouth, but only how to make those sounds into what we understand as language. Humans are born with the explicit design to walk upright. It’s not a potential- it is a given. No one has to teach a child how to walk upright.
A child naturally tries to walk upright (after a given amount of time). He only needs to be taught how to walk upright properly. Humans are born with fists and knuckles with the explicit design to be used for personal self defense. It’s not a potential- it is a given. No one has to teach a child to use his fists, but only how to use them properly. Much like a dog is born with the explicit design to bark, it doesn’t matter if they begin doing so as soon as they are born.
You are not born with the explicit design to hold private property. The natural order of the world has no design for property ownership.
Just Say’n,
Do you feel like “Do not steal” being one of the ten commandments, shows a design for ownership?
1. The design to be able to acquire a thing is what potential means. So saying Children have bodies that will develop speech and ability to defend themselves is saying exactly what I claim, that they have the potential to acquire these things.
2. If you have ever watched young children they recognize the idea of “MINE” about the same moment they become able to communicate any idea at all, so I think your argument that somehow property is not a right is unfounded.
3. I do agree that property is ‘lesser’ in the right hierarchy, but only because it is derivative. The right to liberty obviously entails the right to act, property is the result of purposeful action.
4. If you are making the less extreme claim, that Real Property rights are not the same sort of thing as Life Liberty and Personal Property. I agree. Land is a special case as it exists independent of any human action.
As I said at the top, I don’t accept the Catholic Church’s point of view on private property (which is probably held by other Christian churches, but I’ve only read the Catholic philosophy take on private property such as the writings of St. Robert Bellarmine, GK Chesterton, Hillaire Beloc, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.).
Further, I’m not exceptionally religious (every joke I crack about other faiths is meant as a joke, though not everyone sees it that way). I have respect for people that are very religious and for churches, generally speaking, and particularly the Catholic Church and its philosophical writings, but I’m not a bible thumper (nor is that really required of Catholics either). And I don’t draw natural rights from the Ten Commandments.
I firmly believe that we don’t need an exhaustive list of natural rights, because they are self evident if you just consider what people are endowed with (literally plagiarizing Enlightenment thinkers).
Assuming the original state of man, no one was born with a deed to land.
No. You aren’t born with a printing press or a firearm, either. Printing presses, firearms, and deeds to land are simply how we express our rights to free expression, self-defense, and ownership of property in an organized society.
You have the innate ability to speak, defend yourself, and exclude others from using your stuff. In fact, the innate ability to defend yourself and exclude others from your property are pretty much the same thing.
“No. You aren’t born with a printing press or a firearm, either. Printing presses, firearms, and deeds to land are simply how we express our rights to free expression, self-defense, and ownership of property in an organized society.”
I disagree. The printing press and the firearm are just additional tools used to exercise your natural right to speech and self defense. People are born with the natural right of free association, but private property is not a tool to exercise that right. Private property can only be used to exclude someone through some authority or individual force. Therefore, it can only be recognized through society or government.
The question then arises should only those able to muster the force necessary to secure private property be the only ones allowed to hold property (meaning, anyone who can forcibly assert their ownership of a property through violence are, in practice, the only people who can actually hold land)? Or, as a “civil right” should we provide property protections for all through some minarchist state?
So clearly, violence must be employed by either yourself or some other authority in order to secure your right to exclude others with private property. In contrast, you can exclude others without the use of private property through means that don’t require violence from yourself or some other authority (much like purchasing a gun or a printing press). Such as choosing not to congregate somewhere or choosing not to talk to someone.
The mere fact that you have to employ violence either by yourself or through some other authority in order to acquire property rights means that it is not a natural right, nor an expression of a natural right.
People are born with the natural right of free association, but private property is not a tool to exercise that right.
Agreed. Private property is not an exercise of the right of free association.
Private property can only be used to exclude someone through some authority or individual force. Therefore, it can only be recognized through society or government.
Your personal safety can only be protected through some authority or individual force, as well. But we don’t say it can only be recognized through society or government.
You exclude others from using your stuff through exactly the same means that you protect your person. If there is a right of self-defense that arises from your ability to punch someone who tries to attack you, then there is a right of property ownership that arises from your ability to punch someone who tries to steal from you.
Just as the innate drive to express ourselves and protect ourselves are the root of the rights of expression and self-defense, the innate recognition of “mine” drives the right to property.
So clearly, violence must be employed by either yourself or some other authority in order to secure your right to exclude others with private property.
No more so than violence or the threat of violence must be employed to protect me from aggression.
“Your personal safety can only be protected through some authority or individual force, as well.”
Personal safety is not a natural right. You aren’t endowed with personal safety.
“You exclude others from using your stuff through exactly the same means that you protect your person. If there is a right of self-defense that arises from your ability to punch someone who tries to attack you, then there is a right of property ownership that arises from your ability to punch someone who tries to steal from you.”
You aren’t born with anything other than what you are. You have a right to commerce, as it is derived from your natural right to free association, but you have no right to that stuff. You have a right to defend you and your things, but not to ownership.
Personal safety is not a natural right.
If I don’t have a right to personal safety, where does my right to defend myself come from? If it comes solely from my ability to resist a personal attack with violence, then why doesn’t my ability to resist theft of my stuff with violence give rise, ceteris paribus, to a right to property?
You have a right to defend you and your things, but not to ownership.
I have the right to inflict violence on others if they attack me or try to steal my stuff, but I don’t have a right to personal safety or ownership? Without the latter rights, why is my right to inflict violence on others limited to when they attack me or try to steal my stuff? The “right to defend” begs the question of “defend what”? Its really a right to inflict violence, and if we want to restrict that right, I think we need to find those restrictions somewhere.
You just hate Eddie.
I don’t find the distributist position to be convincing. They have fair critiques of both socialism and capitalism, but their central premise is lacking.
I don’t hate Georgists, because I don’t get nearly as in depth as you people into political philosophy, and consequently I’m not entirely sure what Georgism is.
In its simplest form. It is a flat tax on land property with no other taxes.
That is the Georgist SLT, but that isn’t Georgism, its just one small part.
I am not a Georgist, even though I support the Georgist SLT.
No, the fact that someone will pay for undeveloped land (with an encumbrance of a future ongoing tax) shows that the bidder thinks that they can improve the land sufficiently to recover capitol outlay, pay the ongoing tax, and have a claim on any residual that has a better liquidity/risk/income/fit-to-taste-preferences profile that is better than the next best investment alternative.
This is, as such, a tax on “improvements” in your terminology.
True. Although, we must admit that with regards to residential purchases, rarely will the buyer ever recoup his investment when considering the impact of inflation and the cost and time required to maintain the property.
I can see the counter-argument now “you get your rent in the form of a place to stay, which should be easily monetied since rents are real and fungible, even if they’re just a good view”.
Okay I’m just satirizing the debates we’ve had on the matter.
The desire to live in a home one owns outright on property one owns outright falls under the “fit-to-taste-preference” part of the profile. I get many, many utils from living in my own house (even if the bank kind owns half of it still).
So even if I could dump the excess I’m spending over renting into a Vanguard Target Date Fund and come out with more $$$ in the end, I’m still better off with the house because the target date fund doesn’t help me live the lifestyle I want.
Yes. And that is the qualitative aspect of home ownership.
But my point is that the utils from that qualitative aspect should be considered in the accounting, since people value them enough to pay cash money for them.
You convienently left out opportunity cost and the costs of the next best alternative (that would be paying someone else for the privilege to live on their property)
Factor those in and most home purchases have a net positive investment value
The inputed value is the value of having the land to build upon vs not having the land to build upon. There is value to having a blank canvas.
We don’t want the state choosing winners or losers or getting some PC thing going and divesting from the hookers and blow industries.
I was forced to divest from hookers and blow by Mrs Gordilocks, no state required.
Was that in the contract you more or less voluntarily entered?
I think the contract stipulates that there are definitely no more hookers, and blow is only allowed on special occasions.
Is your birthday coming up?
You aren’t thinking legalistically enough. I mean what does it truly mean to “cleave”, how far do you have to go with the hooker before you are breaking your promise? Are their options?
He’s also forgetting the “what happens in Vegas” clause
But everything is free you silly people.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/25/reparations-income-handouts-guaranteed-jobs-dems-tilt-hard-left-with-new-pet-projects.html
Yep, these seem like issues that will win elections.
They are, the only mistake the Dems have made lately is not making Ellison DNC chair, Perez isn’t quite commie enough.
I’m still scratching my head over the “guaranteed jobs”. They’re going to guarantee that a person always has a government job, no matter how terrible of an employee they are? Oh wait, that’s already a thing.
Someone brought this up on Levin’s show: what do you do if that person just quits showing up? You just have to keep paying them no matter what? How is that different from welfare?
OTOH, if we get rid of welfare/section 8/Medicaid etc. altogether in lieu of people taking menial government jobs cleaning up garbage or painting lines on roads I’d be ok with that. Somehow I don’t think that’s part of Sanders’ plan though.
Don’t show up? Round them up and send the wreckers to the camp where the lucky ones get shot quickly. Anyone else not feel like coming in today?
But it worked so well for the Soviet Union!
Yeah, beating the commie drum is not just ignorant, its insane.
Bernie never came back from his Red Honeymoon.
Spoons.
I’m still scratching my head over the “guaranteed jobs”.
In good commie fashion, those are more “required jobs”, as he said everyone who wanted or needed a job would get one. Since people who don’t want jobs will get them anyway, I think is pretty much a promise of forced labor. Probably in camps, because it will be the only practical way to make sure someone who doesn’t want their job shows up to do it anyway.
It always ends the same with these people, doesn’t it?
Bernie’s plan includes the “Division of Progress Investigation” which will “take disciplinary action if needed,” under the authority of the Labor Department. The DoL already has an armed enforcement branch. So there won’t be much trouble mustering the force necessary to get scofflaws to the Labor Makes Free camps.
Directive 10-289 lives!
No one could have ever predicted that the left are going even further left. No one seen this coming.
I think we can all agree that the income tax completely sucks. A sales tax has some advantages in that you encourages savings which leads to investment. You also have less compliance issues. The only advantage I see to a land tax is it encourages entities to use it or sell it. I haven’t really spent a lot of time thinking about it though.
“Use it or sell it” What if I just want to live on it? Have my hermitage with my subsistance farm and not be bothered with your social engineering projects. What then? Taxing it renders this option unavailable, infringing upon the right of the landowner and basic decency.
That sentiment sounds familiar…
While I wouldn’t go so far as to retreat into the life of a subsistance farmer, I take umbrage at having to pay year over year for the privilege of remaining in my own home.
You don’t pay property taxes now? I sure do and they are not low.
What part of that implied I did not?
I take umbrage at having to, and find it repugnant when someone claims it to be the only ‘moral’ tax based upon internally inconsistant logic pretzels.
All taxes are involuntary and burden some activity or right. To my mind the fairest is a poll tax. You walk up to the booth, pay your tax and exercise the franchise you just paid for. If you don’t want to pay, stay home. I see disadvantages and ways it would be gamed, but it at least ties the tax to participation in the process that spends the revenue being raised.
A poll tax should be impossible in libertopia of course, because elections only serve to instate legislators who then abridge your rights 😛
The fairest tax is consumption tax. Still, all tax is theft and before we resort to a tax, how do we justify it? What’s it for? Are we going to build a huge government bureaucracy that needs constant revenue to survive? That’s not needed for Libertopia.
You could always exempt a set amount of acerage for primary residences.
That would qualify as using it.
While I don’t buy the Georgist argument if you find enough value in leaving 300 acres of unspoiled wilderness between you and civilization you would pay the tax and that would be using the land for your own purposes. Same if you felt like treating it as a private hunting preserve but only visit it a couple times a year.
Hell if you think it is important for the environment to have swathes of unspoiled wilderness and NEVER visit the land yourself you would still be using it
So who controls the tax rate? Plenty of people have sold and exited New Jersey because property taxes exploded. I’m paying over $1k a month for 1.2 acres of land with no real value beyond the fact it’s where my house, well, and septic are situated.
Same people who control tax rates today.
People elected by non-property owning voters?
Well renters pay property taxes even if if they don’t understand that.
They rarely think about it.
The whole proposal is that the land is auctioned off by bidding the tax rate, person willing to pay the highest gets the piece of land, the rates cannot change without a new auction.
That makes more sense. Can my kids inherit?
Sure, they will pay the same tax amount going forward.
Same as if you sold it, the new buyer pays the same amount going forward.
I have a real issue with this entire land tax thing for Libertopia. It’s not a libertarian idea, since it insinuates that you don’t own the land, you only rent from government. And the government can take it away from you if you fail to pay, no matter how much you’ve already paid. So private property is only an illusion, like in this real world we live in, which is anything but libertarian. Too statist for me.
It’s not a libertarian idea, since it insinuates that you don’t own the land, you only rent from government
You don’t own land. You defend it or you don’t.
Government is just farming out that defense to a third party. That third party wants to get paid.
Of course, if you don’t pay, the government will take the land from you. So it’s really extortion. It’s not truly a voluntary transaction.
I don’t need to get paid to defend my property, it would be wholly voluntary. To get paid, I have to provide a service or product to someone else who wants it. Otherwise, if I just want to stay on my parcel of land and live off of it, I can. Many will choose to do enterprise and enrich themselves more. Some will be content to just grow some food and brew some beer. Whatever, it will all work out in a totally free market without government interference.
The main practical issue with the “I can be trusted to leave my neighbors alone and my neighbors can be trusted to leave me alone” is when the inevitable marauders show up and people go “that’s a problem for the people the marauders are attacking” and sooner or later the survivors are serfs under the new Marauder King. It is the differential between what is and what would be nice.
Of course you could just as easily pay a private third party to defend your land, without forfeiting it when you fail to pay at some point.
Land taxes are silly, and so are the justifications for them.
Of course you could just as easily pay a private third party to defend your land, without forfeiting it when you fail to pay at some point.
I think that is the whole point of libertarianism, right?
In a libertarian society where everyone is armed to the teeth, the marauders life span will be drastically shortened.
Can my kids inherit?
It sounds like, when you die, the kids will inherit the obligation to pay the rent/SLT. Until they re-auction the land.
This just gets more feudal the longer I think about it.
That would seem to go against the tenets of Georgism.
So, I buy a patch of land from this Georgist government and I get it at a VERY low auction price because it is kind of in the middle of nowhere.
Then, sometime later a bridge is built across a nearby river to facilitate trade between the 2 nearest cities. This bridge brings travelers right past the border of my property and being somewhat distant from both cities my land is now the perfect place to build a waystation. Now, even though I have done nothing to improve the land it is worth significantly more than it was when I purchased it from the government but my tax rate is fixed to it’s initial value.
This would allow me to capture significant unearned rents from that property, the very thing George’s SLT was supposedly trying to prevent.
The reality is in this new country example for nearly every plot of land it’s unimproved value will increase over time as the country around it develops and the initial purchasers of that land will reap those unearned rents
My issue boils down to this fixation on “earned income” versus “returns on investment” (ie, “rent”) is what sours me to the Georgists. The claim that they’re trying to be fair and moral reeks of the same justifications used by the communists to strip productive people of their wealth under the “you didn’t build that” justification.
Its fixed for as long as the taxes are paid
So they decide: We will divide the land into parcels and auction off the parcels.
It’s all downhill from there.
It always is.
Sales tax (or some other such one-time consumption tax) is the only tax I consider moral since it can be voluntarily avoided.
Property/Land taxes are horseshit. Pay a sales tax when you buy your land, then it’s yours forever free and clear until and unless you decide to sell it.
Income taxes are not only immoral, they’re stupid. What you tax you get less of; so you want people producing less wealth?
Use taxes like tolls are a mixed bag. As long as they act like sales taxes (one time tax for one use) then I think they’re ok. In some circumstances, they’re horseshit too.
If a sales tax is part of a schema to officially record the transfer of ownership and thus allow redress of disputes later on, then I’m okay with it. But as you say, to tax something, you get less of it, so a sales tax on otherwise unrecorded transactions is merely a disincentive on commerce.
The premise of the article was that there would be government that required public funding as opposed to anarchy. I suppose you could tell them that if they need money they should loot it from some other country.
“Sales tax (or some other such one-time consumption tax) is the only tax I consider moral since it can be voluntarily avoided.”
Why? Do people not have a moral ability to make associations, including ones with small net benefits that are less than the sales tax?
How is that different than saying speech codes are the only criminal law I consider moral since it can be voluntarily avoided by just avoiding your natural right to speak about unpopular topics?
I’m talking tallest midget here. I’d prefer no taxes and all “services” funded through voluntary donation; but if we admit that taxes are necessary for a functional society (something certainly not clearly established) then sales tax is about the only one that passes a minimal bar of morality IMO.
Ok, but why is the sales tax moral? You can avoid property taxes by never buying property. Lots of people seem to live happy lives being a renter their whole life (even if I don’t understand them). No one I know never makes a purchase.
See what Brooks says below: it’s a number derived a priori by a willing buyer and willing seller agreeing on a price. There’s no third party appraisal or some such nonsense. You can also go to another vendor with a lower price on the good, and a proportionally lower tax. Property tax, while possible to avoid by renting (though the tax really just gets passed onto the tenants) I think is worse because it’s a tax on existence.
I’m not saying either is ideal, but abstractly I think a tax on consumption is better than a tax on existence.
But assuming we aren’t talking about Giffen goods, even the small tax on the cheapest vendor still causes dead weight loss. There are still the marginal transactions that would happen but for the sales tax.
And sales taxes apply to commodities required for life – bottles of water, grain, hookers, blow. And the tax incident of those flow all the way to the consumer because their demand is inelastic because they die if they don’t get them. Ergo, its a tax on existence.
(I’m sure you know I’m just poking there bear a bit because its fun to think about these things)
except, you can aquire food and water without paying money at a store for it.
Ok, I’ll bite. How?
there are places where it literally grows on trees. And you can always trade labor for it.
CPRM brings up a good question: where does barter fall on this scale? And if there is no income tax, I suppose to could trade your labor directly for goods and not be taxed.
Basically, taxation is stupid.
“You have the freedom to be a subsistence farmer OR a laborer not permitted to touch cash money!” does not sound like the moral government I am looking for.
You seem to the one limiting yourself to those options; so that sound pretty free to me.
Hunting, Fishing, gathering, farming, orchards, gardening, barter, charitable donations or pay a set percentage of each purchase you decide to make using cash. Sounds like it gives you a lot of ways to avoid the tax if you so choose. Just because you don’t choose the tax free option doesn’t mean you’re forced to.
Right, its physically possible. Just like its physically possible to move to Somalia.
But I’m poking at Q’s assertion that an income tax is moral because its avoidable, because I think its wrong. If avoidability is the test for morality, then an income tax fails because its no more avoidable than avoiding US current tax structure by moving to Somalia.
We know that “just move to Somalia” is not a real way to avoid real US taxes because that’s such a preposterous length to go to. Not giving up your friends, family, and everything you know is not a sign of consent. Same with not becoming a subsistance farmer or giving up cash.
They are both ‘your money or your life’ propositions. And we know what we think of a mugger who says that to you.
A person in the city can’t acquire some seeds and grow vegetables on the window sill and then take out the neighbor’s trash in exchange for that and a few tomatoes get a meal from the elderly lady down the hall?
They can. That’s obvious. I’m saying an “avoidable tax” isn’t morally avoidable if the government requires you to live like a bronze-age beggar to get there.
So, assuming there has to be some sort of tax revenue, which one is the most moral? One where you can choose when, where and how much in tax you pay? One where you get kicked off your own property if don’t pay in a timely fashion? One that taxes you by how much you work and if not paid in a timely fashion you are fined or jailed? One that is arbitrary on ‘sin’ products? Pray tell, which is the most moral tax?
Oh, I’m a rules-based utilitarian, not a deontological libertarian. Morality to me, for a state, is just that it has to avoid making people worse off unless those people volunteer to be made worse off.
If instituting a tax to pay for a government service is Pareato-improving, I’m fine with it. So that would include voluntary taxes like the old Chinese taxes on 1/9th of 8 families farms. It also covers taxes to pay for services that are a net-positive-after-tax of each individual required to pay the tax.
I’m also ok with using fines as criminal punishments as long as there is no structural incentive turn innocent behavior into criminal behavior in order to bilk the population.
…but if we admit that taxes are necessary for a functional society (something certainly not clearly established)…
To be pedantic: taxation is necessary for a functional government, and government is an inevitable outgrowth of society. “[I]n this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.”
Once again . . . There is no such fucking thing as “Society”. “Society” is the illusion that appears when one steps back and loses track of the billions of individual souls inhabiting this planet going about their business in a mostly cooperative fashion.
That’s like saying there’s no such thing as a forest, that a forest is the illusion that appears when one steps back and loses track of the millions of individual trees that grow in the same space. But a forest has different dynamics than a single tree, or even an orchard, and likewise a society has different dynamics than a single person or a family. To ignore that people are social creatures and that they behave differently in groups is to ignore reality, and any philosophy based purely on individualism without taking into account group dynamics, how individuals act when they are together, is doomed to failure.
how individuals act when they are together,
“Individuals acting together” is still “Individuals acting together”.
Group behavior does not create a “thing” called society.
I have become hard over on this point in reaction to progressives. In the progressive mindset (and also in the conservative mindset), society is a real thing that has rights that exceed the rights of individuals. Therefore, the rights of individuals can be limited to enhance the rights of the society. This mindset is evil.
I got on the SLT kick because I decided it is the only one that passes a minimal bar of morality.
Sales tax is better than income tax, but that is an even lower bar.
I support the SLT due to the civil right vs natural right of land ownership.
Sales tax (or some other such one-time consumption tax) is the only tax I consider moral since it can be voluntarily avoided.
Unless it’s a tax on the sale of food. Kind of hard to avoid that one unless you’re Jeremiah Johnson.
Maybe I’m just colossally ignorant (and obtusely so) but establishing a taxable value based on the “unimproved value” of land is nonsensical in the most flattering light.
That assessment is already made when your property taxes are levied. There is a different rate on “unimproved land” versus “improved land” (although residential property taxes are different).
Sales tax (or some other such one-time consumption tax) is the only tax I consider moral since it can be voluntarily avoided.
And- it’s based on a real number, derived from a transaction between a willing buyer and a willing seller.
No fucking estimates pulled out of somebody’s ass.
Yeah, although they can still screw with the rates.
That assessment is already made when your property taxes are levied.
Are we talking about the here-and-now world or the SLT cloud cuckoo land?
In both cases, the imputed value is bullshit, because value is subjective, but the Georgeist version is even dumber.
“because value is subjective”
Yes and that’s why a market exists. Local government either use “fair market value” on an assessment or “cost value” or some combination of the two when assessing property (again residential property is slightly different).
I mentioned this a while ago: I take great exception to the mere existence of “property appraisers”. My property is worth whatever someone will pay for it. The idea it has some intrinsic value that can be measured magically by a bureaucrat is fucktarded.
Yes, but they are using market values too. They assess the value based upon similar home sales near where you live. Obviously it is not an exact science, but all residential property is typically assessed at the market value
The objective price of a thing is the price it was last sold for. Property tax, if it is to exist at all, should be based on the price it was sold for.
Alternatively, someone around here had the idea that the government property evaluation should be a binding purchase offer. So if they value your house at 350,000, you can take the 350,000 or pay the property tax.
I was avoiding the whole appraisal problem (which is a 100% legitimate problem) via the auction. The “appraisal” is done by the buyer.
In the Good Ship Lollipop island scenario, each individual will look at any given plot of land and value it according to his or her preferences. I look at a mountain top and see sweet serene isolation. The next bidder may look at it and see a resort packed with screaming drunken college kids ziplining to their next slobbery hookup. My bid will not win.
Yay, more rent for the government, more rules, more cops, more zipline inspectors. Paradise!
Private property: You keep what you kill.
I guess I get to keep my social life then.
The first thing that occurred to me is that the state’s income would not be fixed. It would go up and down as more and less people were paying the tax. One thing a state cannot abide is income being reduced. They would corrupt the system and new taxes would be born.
“Our income was X. We cant let it be X-1! We would have to cut services and lay off workers.”
Your Libertopia might stand a better chance of survival with fairly short term limits for all offices and a fixed, constitutionally defined consumption tax.
Now, if you will excuse me I have to drive to the courthouse and pay a substantial sum in property tax today which burns my ass.
“Our income was X. We cant let it be
X-1less than 1.05X! We would have to cut services and lay off workers.”Yes and that’s why a market exists. Local government either use “fair market value” on an assessment or “cost value” or some combination of the two when assessing property
And you want the government to have the ability to decide I am not using my property “appropriately” and not extracting sufficient revenue to share with them, I guess. They should be able to seize it from me and auction it off to a more enterprising owner.
“I. Let us start with the premise of this thought experiment. A group of libertarians discovers a previous unfound island or planet ”
It will have to be a planet. There’s nowhere on this one we would be left alone, unless we have nuclear warheads capable of hitting DC, Moscow, and Shanghai within minutes.
+ open borders
Once we’re on a planet a few light years away, I don’t think we’ll need to worry about being flooded by 3rd world peasants.
“Economic migrants” from Alpha Centauri.
If they didn’t see the large space Gadsen flag, not our fault.
Just be on the lookout for the USS Pelosi.
Our AI system will be programmed to automatically destroy anything approaching the planet the reeks of leftist or stupid.
I thought that if a group of libertarians were to found some previously unsettled island or planet that a civil war would break out between the inhabitants within the first few months. The cause of the civil war would probably be over some trivial matter such as the land tax
I’m reminded of a Nothern Exposure episode were a conversation as to whether they should get a community dumpster for the town turned into this huge argument over big government. It was pretty funny.
That show was so underrated.
The first two seasons were great, but it went to hell after a bit.
No land taxes. Just draw up a large tract of real estate and put flags on it, like during the land rush way back when. Make the tracts big enough that you can raise your own food on it. That should take care of everyone.
Paging Michael Z. Williamson.
So to summarize, we all hate taxes and we all hate the government. I would have never imagined.
Your summary sucks because you left out the one thing we love, which is to disagree. So you are wrong and bad and
FUCK OFF SLAVER
STFU Tulpa.
Look at Tulpa over here yelling at his sock puppet
I don’t want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper!…… I fart in your general direction! . Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
You forgot boobs.
I also hate the majority of humanity. Don’t forget that.
To my mind the fairest is a poll tax. You walk up to the booth, pay your tax and exercise the franchise you just paid for. If you don’t want to pay, stay home. I see disadvantages and ways it would be gamed, but it at least ties the tax to participation in the process that spends the revenue being raised.
There are worse ideas floating around, out there.
Hell, I’d advocate menu pricing: Presidential vote, $100; Senator, $75; und so weiter, down to county commisioner ($1.35).
Presidential vote, $100; Senator, $75; und so weiter, down to county commisioner ($1.35).
You mean Trump’s got to pay me a hundred bucks for my vote?
Wouldn’t it be nice if the powers of our elected reps were so limited that elections were essentially irrelevant exercises?
Even better, allow them to purchase multiple votes but make the cost of each vote after the first increase exponentially
Then it becomes cheaper to pay a lot of people to cast a couple of votes the way you want.
Yeah but the ballot remains secret.
How well do you trust those people?
wouldn’t that defeat the point of making the votes purchasable?
After all, it’s not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes.
A key problem with SLT is not that the land has improvements, but that it is adjacent to other people’s capital and improvements. That somebody else has built a canal, dock or road now makes this parcel accessible.. Since you have the calculation problem you can’t go back to zero capital and posit a day zero value. What we see is that people seem to think the land has an inherent value, but that this is its proximity to other capital.
The thought experiment would start… what you would pay for a back woods camping spot?.. no improvements, 1000 miles from anywhere, no roads. Anything else values the land as ease of access, near the ports etc.
I theorize that this land value is so low as to preclude anything near the requirements for modern taxation, and the SLT only requires you to get the value “perfect”.. if you over tax, then it is just as bad as the current arbitrary property tax system (which is an income tax by proxy) ..
I see the SLT is mired in “capital by proxy” which is just as bad as income by proxy. I think we see something of that now… since the property values and taxes are related to my neighbors, if the local government taxes away all of the gain of being near the capital improvements of my neighbors, why should I allow my neighbors to improve their property, when it will raise my taxes?.. This is why we see NIMBY in even affluent communities, you say that the improvements of the neighbors and the community have raised the value of my land… so we are going to raise your taxes, even though you make no more money. I should actively attempt to sabotage the value of the neighbor’s properties.
So as we’re not anarchists, we have to have laws. I say we make it pretty simple. I think the NAP will pretty much cover it. Don’t hurt other people or their property and don’t steal stuff. No one needs more laws than that. Also, that’s a permanent Constitution. One one sheet of paper. It cannot be amended, forever. Also, no elections. We have a yearly raffle and if your name gets drawn, you can be an administrator to administrate whatever needs administrating for one year, if you want to. After that, you are never allowed to serve again. I can totally see since our entire nation is made up of libertarians, the administrative council being empty for years at a time. Oh, and no roads and bridges, flying cars only! Whohoo, Libertopia!
So as we’re not anarchists, we have to have laws. I say we make it pretty simple.
The oldest known legal code had 57 laws. The current US legal code has enough laws that there are nearly 5,000 distinct federal criminal offenses. Simple is better, but it is hard to fight mission creep when people cheer leaders who “do something” and jeer those who “do nothing”. The problem, as ever, is human nature.
“6. If a man violates the right of another and deflowers the virgin wife of a young man, they shall kill that male.”
‘That male’ needs to be more specific about the antecedent.
Either one. Either the cuck clears his rep by killing the infringer or gets offed to remove him from the gene pool.
Strategic ambiguity is the hallmark of great legal writing.
“19. If a man has cut off another man’s foot, he is to pay ten shekels.”
Was there an epidemic of involuntary foot amputation back then?
If they felt it necessary to make a law, there must have been. Either that, or the author had a foot fetish. Although in context:
“28. If a man appeared as a witness, and was shown to be a perjurer, he must pay fifteen shekels of silver.”
Either perjury was heavily punished or foot amputation was lightly punished, so I don’t quite know what to make of it.
We simply limit the power of that human nature by having our very simplistic set of laws, which cannot be changed. So there’s no need to cheer on someone to add to that when they cannot do it. And there will be no power at all in being in our simple administration. Most of the time, there will be nothing to administrate, except enforcing our simple laws. Someone is hurting other people or stealing, you some down on their ass. It will be more a grudging, ok, it’s my turn, at least I only have to do it once. The only way to ever change things and ensure the maximum amount of liberty is to eliminate politics as a way to more power and money. Otherwise, you wind up with what we have now and just creep further towards totalitarianism ruled by an elite ruling class.
Then enough people want to shirk their turn, and they go “Yeah some old farts a century ago decided that we shouldn’t change these rules, but we totally should, so the same people who want to do the icky work can keep doing it” and then proceed from there.
I knew that would come up. So let’s go back to human nature. Everyone won’t do that, they’ll be enough, always. We only need a very small number of them to enforce the law. So let’s say you got some renegade fuckers who are running around pillaging, plundering, and raping. You can always call in volunteers. Since everyone will be well armed libertarians, not many people will take the chance to pursue a career as outlaw, since obviously, they wouldn’t live very long.
Assumptions that won’t survive more than a few generations.
Assumptions that won’t survive more than a few generations.
But most of the assumptions that will survive aren’t pleasant. Such is the eternal vexation of practical philosophy.
This.
So. Much. This.
It’s something I’ve been working on formulating for a while. I think you could easily write a 10 page constitution that takes everything into account and drops any need for further legislation (and thus most elections.) With a simply enough law and a framework for interpreting it, people would have an easier time understanding the law, and jury trials for everything should become simple.
Can’t I just move to Somalia?
Sorry. Looks like they are keeping foreigners out to protect their jerbz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Somalia
It’s a reverse muslim ban. The left will surely send some outrage there.
Roadz are overrated.
I wonder how much money would need to be raised on a kickstarter to simply buy the rights to write a new constitution for Somalia, or Venezuela, etc.?
So the parking lot of my office has a bunch of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrus_calleryana
They are blooming right now, which means the parking lot smells like a bukkake party.
Q, that is NOT why your parking lot smells like a bukkake party and you damn well know it!
We try to keep it all indoors, but sometimes things get out of hand.
Writes job application
I first read that as there’s a lot of Prius at your office.
Thankfully no.
Well, that may have led to a bad smell if it meant lots of smelly hippies hanging around. I hate those people. I know who they are when I see them at the Whole Foods, you can smell them if you get within 10 ft of them, they don’t put their produce in a bag and just put it right down on a nasty store checkout conveyor belt. Uncivilized idiots.
OT: November is going to be interesting.
http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/384508-feehery-the-problem-with-the-dem-wave-theory
I mean, I’m not sure why anyone wouldn’t trust pollsters that all forecast Hillary to beat Trump in a landslide. They had her ahead in Ohio by 8 pts right up the election, for crikey sake. That’s nearly an 18% error.
That’s what happens when you glug too much of your own kool-aid juice.
I see the SLT is mired in “capital by proxy” which is just as bad as income by proxy.
I like this formulation, assuming I understand it correctly.
It is absurd to pretend the tax on land is not based on the optimal potential returns from owning/improving that land, regardless of the immediate activities taking place there. And also to another of your points, some asshole just built a great big lincoln log monstrosity just up the hill from me. I can’t wait to see what effect that has on my property tax (which got a completely unexplained 20% bump this year).
If there is an idea of NPV of the land.. it has to include its proximity to the “future” capital.. but how do you decide on day zero that someone is going to build NYC on that island?.. and the future technologies that allow the accumulations of capital. In 1626 how do we know there will be future technology that allows building in the meadowlands?… what would you bid for a swamp in NJ?.
I want to say that the raw SLT (if not capital by proxy) is so low as to be unmeasurable.. Almost all of the value is created by enclosure.. the fact that it was surveyed, discovered, fenced etc.. is 99% of its value… and therefore “improvements”.. The Georgian’s were living in a time when land rents were 90% of the income and a lot of those were already proximity to rivers, ports, markets etc.. so already tainted. . These days capital rents are 90% of our income.. therefore taxes are going to be related to those capital rents, and can’t be forced back into land rents.
OT: Katie Couric’s best work to date.
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/scott-whitlock/2018/04/25/new-low-couric-and-sex-robots-who-want-make-love-her-sexy-ass
Funny
Cosby found guilty
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/04/26/cosby-guilty-jury-rules-comedian-sexually-assaulted-andrea-constand.html
It’s gonna take a whole box of Jello Pudding Pops to cheer him up after this.
/Depressed, muttered Cosby skat talk.
For? A Different World?
From where Cosby came from
Has anyone let Bill no he won’t be getting any ludes before they rape him where he’s going? No? Better not, let him have one more peaceful night.
Huh, so they’ve managed to take down an iconic comedian. It’s sad. I mean I can’t really have an opinion about what he did or didn’t do. But in the current environment, I immediately doubt any accusations like this.
It’s sad though, I remember Cosby when I was a kid, the fat Albert stuff, I laughed my ass off so many times, that was priceless stuff.
He was an uppity nigger teaching kids about family, personal responsibility and temperance; he had to go.*
*I’m saying this only half-joking. If he really did rape all those women, he should be going to jail. But why now? Why not 25 years ago? And I can’t imagine this happening to Jay-Z or some other more politically correct black guy.
Obviously, because it’s the in thing right now. If you can ruin someone’s life over a #MeToo accusation, you become an instant celebrity. That’s why now. We live in a very sick society.
“And I can’t imagine this happening to Jay-Z or some other more politically correct black guy.”
How long before they start going after Kanye?
Why not 25 years ago?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cosby_Show
The Cosby Show spent five consecutive seasons as the number-one rated show on television. The Cosby Show and All in the Family are the only sitcoms in the history of the Nielsen ratings to be the number-one show for five seasons. It spent all eight of its seasons in the top 20.
The number one rating is/was a license to kill.
Wasn’t Jay-Z a dope dealer or something like Snoop Dog?
Did they ever do time?
OT: I literally can’t even with this alt-right, KKK, Nazi shit.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/america-needs-a-lot-more-of-this-kind-of-white-hetero-patriarchal-respectability/
*TRIGGERED*
Like this?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/24/florida-school-district-condemns-students-racist-promposal.html
Yikes. That boy ain’t right.
I hope that kid got a minimum of 10 years for crimethink.
Did it work?
He got mad laid by his Neo-Nazi girlfriend.
Was she hot?
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9d/5e/93/9d5e93acdfbaae226ecdcbc481017ceb.jpg
Would
What’s wrong with it?
“A coalition of students and alumni responded to the essay in predictable fashion. Wax and Alexander were peddling the “malignant logic of hetero-patriarchal, class-based, white supremacy that plagues our country today.”
Yeah, graduating high school, going to college, getting married before having kids, staying out of trouble, working hard, that’s Hitler like sort of stuff. How dare those Hitlers give people advice like that.
Fucking looney toons.
It is in entirely predictable. When you understand that intersectionalism is communism in an ugly mumu, it alll follows. Instead of the capitalists, the bourgeois, and the proletariat it is the white males, the bourgeois, and LGBTQWERTY / POC. So when an intersectionalist says that the white patriarchy oppresses POC, what it is usually saying is that POC can’t adapt to the culture required to succeed in a meritocratic, free market (relatively speaking) system and thus under perform.
In a sense they are right. If you don’t follow the formula that quote hints at, you are probably going to fail and fail miserably at life. You don’t have to hit all the elements, and I’d argue a couple of them can be mostly ignored, but life is really hard for those who can’t at least get half of those things right. The good thing is the formula is pretty simple and easy. And anyone who wants to can do it. it also leaves plenty of room for individual autonomy. In fact, that formula results in having a better life than any other and societies built on it are highly functional. The alternative is Venezuela.
When an Intersectionalist talks about smashing the patriarchy, what they mean is they want to destroy the system that rewards following that formula and replace it with one that rewards you for being a victim, at the expense of those who do follow the formula. It’s why that idea is so vile and evil.
Yep. Identity politics of the modern Left is just repackaged Marxism using race/sexuality/identity instead of economics as the basis for permanent revolution.
Yep, and their usual targets, successful people, happy people, family, free speech, capitalism. Same old Marxism repackaged.
So, did I miss anything?
I haven’t read the comments yet.
We need more beer.
I don’t need more beer, I have plenty. I just need to be able to drink one. I’m still working, grrrr. Nice day outside, a beer would hit the spot. Sigh…
*quickly pulls pants back up*
Uhhhhh…. no…. you didn’t miss anything! Nothing going on in here!
“That smell, it’s just the trees!”
/slap!
Yes. We proved why the SLT/LVT is an idiotic idea. :-p
Wax and Alexander were peddling the “malignant logic of hetero-patriarchal, class-based, white supremacy that plagues our country today.”
Talk about the banality of evil.
Hard work and having a family, staying out of trouble, those are plagues you know. Worse than dogs and cats sleeping together and plagues of locusts, apocalyptic shit.
I haven’t read the comments yet.
It’s hugs and flowers, all the way down.
Except for the fighting and cursing stuff.
Fuck you, no one was fighting!
Also, that hooker was already dead when we got here.
I thought I told you to shutup, Tulpa!
I was right and everyone else was wrong. Just like every thread.
OT: I was just in a 90 minute training on implicit bias!
*sarcastic cheer*
Our old friend the implicit association test made a prominent appearance.
Was it worthwhile and productive? Are you better at being implicitly bias now?
You should have turned your chair around and faced the back of the room.
During Q&A you should have said, “If Implicit Bias is so bad, maybe everyone should just show Explicit Bias”
I was just in a 90 minute training on implicit bias!
tl;dr version: If I did not get my way, it’s because you are biased against me. You’re keeping me down!
First, the recent discussion in which UCS and RCDean questioned the reality of imputed value. The fact that someone will pay for undeveloped land shows that imputed value or economic rents or whatever is a real thing.
Your thought experiment contains no imputed value or economic rents. It instead auctions off land based on annual rent (“single land tax”) payable to the state. Imputed value and/or economic rents are “made up” numbers by whoever is imposing the tax on those amounts. Your scenario contains no such made-up numbers, which gets around imputed value nicely. Unfortunately, I don’t see any practical way to do this with pre-existing landholdings, which I think is why you need made-up numbers to impose the SLT on pre-existing landowners.
The other nice thing about your experiment is that it openly provides for no ownership (as we understand it) of land by anyone but the state. You can’t sell the land, you can either put it back to the state for a new auction or, presumably, sublet it for an amount that I supposed could be more or less than your rent/single land tax. Its actually quite feudal, which is not surprising, since I think the SLT was a reaction to the “long tail” of feudalism – large inherited landholdings, with the owners living off of the rents they collected.
I’m not sure I agree that there is no difference between being an owner and being a renter, even if the present value of a perpetual rent obligation is equal to the purchase price.
Sure, you can. The new owner would know the tax amount before the purchase and pay accordingly. Of course, I assume most people would improve the land before selling, as the improvements are the thing of value that the purchaser would want.
Yes, it does. The discounted tax stream is exactly equal to the discounted stream of economic rents that the purchaser values the land at. It eliminates state appraisal of inputed value by transferring that decision to the owner of the land.
It eliminates state appraisal of inputed value by transferring that decision to the owner of the land.
This may be semantics. The amount that someone agrees to pay for something is not “imputed” at all, it is the amount they actually paid for it. “Imputed” means something more like “assigned” value. Regardless, the Sausagetopia Auction gets around the issue.
You can’t sell the land,
You acquired your rights in the land by personally committing to pay a fixed amount. You will lose your rights in the land unless you make those payments. Sounds like you are a renter, and you have a renter’s rights in the land.
You can take someone else’s money and let them use the land, but you are still on the hook for the rent/SLT, right? Which makes them your sublessor. Unless the new occupant and the state agree to let the new occupant step into your shoes as the person who owes the rent/SLT. Which sounds to me less like a “sale” of the property than an “assignment and assumption” of a lease.
No, they are on the hook. From your perspective, it would be an “assignment and assumption” of a lease.
But that is what we have today for all property, including building and (in my state) cars.
Actually, it would be “assignment and assumption” for the land, but an actual sale for the improvements (at least assuming the improvements were separable from the land).
That isn’t the case today.
Their established minarchy will never spend any money it does not already have in its coffers.
As I understand it, the government has no money in its coffers until after the auction. If you mean the society will have no money that it doesn’t have when the spaceship lands, you are setting yourself up for serious deflation as you spread a fixed amount of currency over a larger and larger economy.
the amount of land tax you (or any future owners) are committing to pay on the parcel each year going forward for all eternity.
This is where the deflation bites the citizens of Sausagetopia. Paying the rent/SLT with deflated currency will get harder and harder over time, and could become impossible. I suppose this is solved by putting your land up for re-auctioning, but being forced off your property because you can’t afford the SLT strikes me as unlibertarian, and probably unsustainable in the long run.
As it is sensible, the currency will be something like gold that is stable over the long term and so inflation won’t be a problem.
Gold provides a stable-ish currency because extraction of gold, over longish periods of time, has more or less equaled economic growth. If we are going to allow newly extracted gold to count as currency, you may avoid the deflation problem (we’ll assume gold is as available on Sausagetopia as it is on earth). But that means Sausagetopia’s currency is not fixed when the spaceship lands.
That is not what I meant, I mean they wont spend anything beyond what they collect in taxes.
For example, on day 0 (auction day), the auction occurs and the winners pay their year 1 SLT. The government then has that money to spend over the next 365 days. On day 365, they collect year 2 SLT to be spent during year 2. Etc.
That makes more sense.
As bad as I hate to say it. I believe that we will have to limit population. Not some statist one child or anything like that. It’s just when all the liveable land is gone, that’s it, no more immigrants. But no problem, we can now traverse interstellar space, there will be other worlds with other land.
Also, since we will have the technology to travel between stars, I don’t see people having many children or very often. It wouldn’t be necessary since at that state of technology we would have long ago been able to cure aging and people would potentially live indefinitely while staying young and full of energy. Everyone would be wealthy just by virtue of the wealth they would have accumulated. Would people be really self absorbed? Yes, I don’t see any issue with that, people will still be social creature and still seek out new ventures, including inventing even better technology. Everyone wouldn’t have to do that, but enough would.
Population is a self-limiting problem. Either we get more economically free and economic and technological development continues apace, and the population levels out and then slowly tapers off until such a time as we have to deal with declining population. Perhaps anagathic medicine will help with that.
Or we slide back toward collectivist means of governance and regress technologically and again, it takes care of itself by people starving, higher infant and child mortality, and shorter life spans.
As we are a long way from using all the livable land (what’s the stat? You could give everyone a 2k sqft house w/ 4 people per house and a yard and put the entire earth’s population in Texas), my hope is the former not the latter is how it goes, but my inner pessimist disagrees.
Ok, I’m basing my analysis of the situation on libertopia being on another planet. Because that’s not nearly as much fantasy as having it here on Earth, which is beyond fantasy, it’s not possible. So at such a time we can do that, I think out technology would have solved many problems. I assume we would settle in around a stable dwarf star and our technology would be sufficient to divert any rocks heading our direction. I doubt we’d have many problems outside the typical human caused ones like fighting, lover quarrels, things like that.
Ahhh, sorry, I was misunderstanding. I thought you meant on earth going forward from today. And based on your comment below; yeah, but I think the colony would struggle with getting to the level where all the livable land was claimed. Assuming a relatively earth-like planet
“I believe that we will have to limit population.”
Never. Fears about overpopulation have existed since the time of ancient Greece and have always been woefully wrong. There are three truisms in life: death, taxes, and there is no such thing as “peak population”.
Actually, right now, the global concern is actually population decline. Which is possible and will have a tremendous impact on society
I’m very worried about peak Dyson Sphere.
I think you read it out of context. I meant that when all the livable land is claimed, because I want everyone to have enough to be self sustainable, we should stop migration, because the new arrivals wouldn’t be able to claim any land. And like I said, that may never happen because people wouldn’t have many children or too many, since they would be spoiled to an extent that they wouldn’t have time for that. When is there time for children in libertopia? We’d be too busy doing lines of coke off hookers behinds, weed, Mexican ass sex, booze, all of that. We don’t need no stankin chillins!
Malthus made two major errors. He assumed that the food supply wouldn’t follow the same growth curve as the population, and that the population growth would continue at the same pace. And unfortunately, Malthus is one of those unknown fundamentals that people take as a given without even realizing it sometimes.
What he didn’t figure out is that he was working at time when his society was transitioning from agrarian to industrial. The incentives for having children are different in those two types of cultures, and it took time for people to respond to the changed incentives of improved medicine and sanitation as well as increased productivity.
I’m reminded of that everyday when I see the huge Victorian style homes around here. Back then people had 8-10 children because that made sense back then when child labor was perfectly normal. Also, there was no birth control. Now people have one or two kids, or none. Except the Jews, they still have 8-10 kids. They really took that stuff about multiplying until their offspring are in number like the stars in heaven, seriously.
The Glib breeding program would need to step it up a notch for sure.
I think that deflation would be offset (probably more than) by the increasing utility value of the land as the economy and population expand.
Assuming the entire economy expands, the price you will get for your value, as measured in the fixed currency, will drop and drop and drop. Meanwhile, your rent/SLT payment is fixed. So you will have less and less currency over time to pay a fixed amount.
Th currency in this idea is not tied to land, robc specifically suggested a gold backed currency. While it is potentially deflationary, it is not deflating at a rate determined by the land value increase and I think that technological advances, development of the land, and population growth would likely increase land utility value faster than the currency value would increase. All of which supports your comparison of this to feudalism.
I think a fixed currency would deflate at the rate the entire economy grows, regardless of what value land is.
But, since this isn’t a fixed currency, but a specie currency which can presumably expand as new gold is found, deflation is probably not an issue.
Let’s just vote down this land tax before it gets started, or I’m off to build my own version of libertaria. If there are to be any taxes, it must be to fund something specific, something justifiable, and it can’t be indefinite.
Libertarians are similar to Jews (or Baptists). Whenever two of us congregate we will form 3 congregations.
Herd them cats, cowboy! Yeah, that’s what independent thought leads to.
OT: Must be a slow news day.
http://kdvr.com/2018/04/24/sex-clubs-more-common-than-people-think-woman-in-the-lifestyle-says/
*lights the outrage mob signal*
That’s a dude in drag, right?
I didn’t see Der Sausagefest parked in the driveway.
in one, simple sentence – explain why Diamond and Silk are testifying before congress right now.
You will be graded on your answers.
I don’t know what Diamond and Silk is, and I have no interest in finding out.
Sounds like a 1970s era duo. Like Captain and Tenille, only lamer.
You mean its not Pokemon: Diamond and Silk?!?
Chile, you don’t e’en want to know!
*snaps fingers, does sassy black lady head move*
You left out the side to side finger wag, that’s what puts the whole thing together.
This is a good answer
We’re going to shake down Derpbook for some revenue?
Because Congress has become a joke and Republicans think that if they had to put on a circus over the nefarious Cambridge Analytics scandal they can put on their own circus to please their base. Of course, the Russians are clearly to blame for everything here
Blue Diamond sells almonds and Silk sells almond milk…
Obviously, you all see where I’m going with this.
And cyanide smells like almonds….
Yeah, I think I do see…..
Its all a cover from Big Nuts.
No, wait. That’s not right This is a congressional hearing. No one has big nuts on capitol hill.
Ha! Sick burn!
Everyone’s shit’s emotional right now, but Congress has a 3 point plan that’s going to fix EVERYTHING, which involves using toilet water for plants.
But, plants need electrolytes
Then you better be drinking your Gatorade
You just called Just Say’n a plant! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Damn, I really miss Eddie and John, things were exciting back then. All you Tulpas is boring me!
Oh yeah. Well, I meant to get the electrolytes into the toilet water. But, I like where your head is, Tulpa.
You all wrong. All wrong. Yall aint know whats goin on in merica. This why we have so much problems. You low information people.
So we ain’t shakin down Derpbook? I’m so disappointed in Congress.
I don’t think anyone commented on “Application to Real Life section II”, and I thought that had some of the best bits in it.
I guess no one read that far.
We’re not here to comment on good stuff. We’re here to cull the weakest from the herd.
I really think your thought experiment was an excellent way to try to get to the value of unimproved land without some bureaucrat just making shit up.
Yeah, that was a tough one to overcome.
It came to me once I figured out that for true unimproved land, that a “perfect” land tax would reduce the sale price to zero.
Its the economic concept of indifference. The person would be indifferent to owning or not owning the land at that point.
I see Cosby just got convicted. I haven’t been following the trial, don’t know if there was good evidence, or the jury just #MeTooed him, for Great Justice.
A possible correct answer which i would have accepted:
Diamond and Silk are testifying before congress because someone slipped LSD into the water supply about a month ago, and you’ve been tripping balls since then.
Proof
The penguin sitting next to me says you’re a liar.
Month? Don’t you mean like 2 years ago?
I’m a little bitter that I missed this yesterday. Talking tax schemes is always interesting to me.
My takeaway from this is that this thought experiment convinces me that An-Cap is the only way to go, baby! Woo!
This conversation leads me to the conclusion that Libertopia needs to have enough room that we rarely meet one another.