As always, when it comes to philosophy and theology, I like to start with a disclaimer that I’m not the most well-read on these topics, so I may stumble onto other people’s ideas without attribution. I may use terms that already exist, but in different ways. Also, I may stumble into traps with just as much lack of awareness. I’m intentionally vague in some areas because I don’t want to be liable for knowing the ins and outs of certain philosophies that I only know superficially.
When thinking about this specific topic, I was reminded of the beginning of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. His book has definitely influenced this article.
I’m a big picture guy. I don’t like the feeling when I have a glimpse of a portion of the system, but don’t have an understanding of the system as a whole. This has worked both in my benefit and to my detriment in life. Math class was really hard when the teacher didn’t explain why the math worked, but only how the math worked. My learning curve as a software engineer was all that much steeper as I worked through all of the previously built functions of our product to learn how they worked rather than just trust that they’d do what their name implied. However, once I got over the hump, I was better at my job than my peers. My need to understand the big picture has been quite helpful in law… except where my manager needs me to just do things without understanding why.
This need for systemic understanding also asserts itself in my political, philosophical, and theological life (I don’t consider those to be three separate areas, but three expressions of one area of my life… my worldview). You all may recognize some of the consequences of my need for systemic understanding. For example, I don’t find pragmatism very interesting or important. How things are accomplished don’t matter as much to me as whether things should be accomplished. Once I have settled on policy X being good*, and movement in the direction of X is good and any movement away from X is bad.
* I’m using good and bad in the colloquial form. Below, as we get into the meat of this article, I’ll be using good and bad in a much more measured and intentional way.
Is This Really It?
The most basic philosophical question that I find interesting is “Is this really it?”, or , rephrased and reversed “Is there anything beyond the scientifically observable universe?” David Hume and Immanuel Kant, among others, basically said no. Most other well known schools of philosophers said yes, while building up a variety of different metaphysical constructs. We’ll come back to those constructs later, but let’s dwell on the question a bit longer and see if we can derive any practical applicability out of it. What does it mean for you and I if there is nothing beyond what can be observed and what can be reasoned?
Well, it can be used to build a foundation for morality. Let’s define a few terms to start. Morality, for the purposes of this article, is the framework used to determine whether a certain action/inaction is good or bad. Good is something that conforms to a certain moral framework. Bad is something that does not conform to a certain moral framework. Amoral is something that exists outside of the moral framework (choosing a color of socks to wear today, for example). Morality can usually be distilled into a set of first principles (i.e. foundational principles), which, in applied form, creates a worldview.
So, what does the absences of metaphysics mean for morality? Well, there seem to be three ways you can go: 1) nihilism – there is no morality; 2) normative morality – morality is baed on what is observed, felt, and intuited; 3) reasoned morality – morality is based on what is reasoned. For reasons I’ll expand on below, I believe that the first option is the only consistent moral framework in the total absence of metaphysics.
Let’s start with the second option, normative morality. My general impression is that most normative frameworks are light on foundation and heavy on post hoc rationalization of really shitty behavior. Setting that aside for the moment, let’s figure out what normative morality is. Generally, it’s a genre of philosophies that use subjective or objective observations of reality to set the basis for their moral framework. This comes in many flavors, such as Greek hedonism (whatever feels pleasant is good), relativistic postmodernism (good is based on lived experience), and utilitarianism (good is based on maximization of well-being). The first thing that strikes me about these “internal” philosophies is that they’re all fuzzy. They’re all based on a state of mind. While all of these philosophers would be on solid ground by starting every sentence with “I feel that . . . “, those who apply these philosophies make a fatal mistake when they expand the feelings of one onto all of humanity. The assumed egalitarianism is problematic. Taking hedonism as an example, what feels pleasurable to me may feel unpleasurable to you. As a trivial example, you may love the feeling of skydiving, and I may hate it. Is skydiving good or bad? The best we can say is that skydiving is good for you and bad for me in a hedonistic context. However, have we done anything by saying that skydiving is good for you and bad for me? Not really. We’re simply adding a layer of abstraction to the already assumed premise that skydiving feels good for you and feels bad for me.
What happens when add the complication of an action having impact on more than one person? Rape feels good to STEVE SMITH, but feels bad to his victim. Now we’re at an impasse. We can add in concepts like lived experience (postmodernism) to attempt to bolster the victim’s position in this standoff. We can even try to quantify good and bad (utilitarianism) in a way that STEVE SMITH only feels marginally better and the victim feels massively worse, but the problem still remains. At some point, where one group’s good feelings are directly connected to the bad feelings of another group, the first group’s infliction of bad feelings on the second group is a good as long as there are enough of the first group and few enough of the second group. A rapesquatch village can have their way with a single victim until the victim is tortured to death because the intensely bad feeling of being raped to death by a roving gang of horny cryptids is outweighed by the marginally good feeling that a rapesquatch feels multiplied by the number of rapesquatches that partake, whether that be 10, 100, 1000, or 10 million.
Finally, these normative philosophies give an overvalued weight to the subjective feelings and observations of a person. It doesn’t take much navel gazing to realize that there are people who feel and observe things that are not valid. Some of this is due to lack of information, such as when you get mad at the wrong person when you see that somebody took a bite out of your pumpkin pie while you were in the bathroom. Some is because your perceptions can be biased by your preconceptions, such as how every single hurricane is because of climate change these days. At the very least, it should be said that feelings and subjective observations have limited applicability outside of the person who has those feelings and subjective observations. What about the next person who has contradictory feelings and observations? Do they have a contradictory morality? What if a person’s feelings and observations change? Does their morality change? There’s nothing weightier here than one person’s whims. What we’re describing is a set of preferences and tastes, with the commensurate weight. “Good” and “bad” are nothing more than labels, like “fashionable” and “tacky”. Cutting through the rhetoric, I’m attempting to expose the fact that these internal-based moralities aren’t really moralities at all. They’re rationalizations for preference and taste built on the empty foundation of nihilism.
All moralities under the normative umbrella suffer from the “is/should” problem (this is why I called them “normative moralities”). Just because something is a certain way doesn’t mean that it should be that certain way. Ignoring the subjective aspects of the observer, empirical evidence doesn’t teach any moral or ethical principles. To derive such principles, one has to apply intuition, insight, or reason to the evidence. Now we’re falling into the same issue, these “external” moralities are really just “internal” moralities based more heavily on sensory input than on states of mind. While these sensory inputs are more strongly anchored in an objective reality than the observer’s whims, the influence of those whims are merely reduced, rather than eliminated. In essence, we have a set of preferences and tastes with the added weight of a relationship with evidence derived from the objective reality. It’s hard to get less abstract than this, because there are so many different forms of this type of philosophy out there. Utilitarianism often falls into this category. However, this is where the “is/should” problem comes in. How much more ethical weight does this evidence provide? Just because animals fight to the death doesn’t mean that murder is good. Somebody with the presupposition that nature is good would say that the fact that animals fight to the death means that murder is good. Somebody with the presupposition that nature is evil would say that the fact that animals fight to the death means that murder is bad. If we enter the analysis without presupposing the morality of nature, then the fact that animals fight to the death has zero bearing on the morality of murder. This is the crux of the “is/should” problem. The only time that evidence of a practice or condition in objective reality can be used in favor of the morality of the practice or condition is when you presuppose that nature is moral, which is . . . metaphysics! Observational moralities have to be built on a metaphysical foundation in order to be coherent.
This leads directly into reasoned moralities. Reasoned moralities, despite being vaunted due to the application of reason, are also normative moralities, with all the same faults and flaws. Reason is really good at applying an existing moral framework. “If A then B” works really good at proving B if A is presupposed, but just like before, you have to presuppose something in order for reason to be applied. In parallel to above, if reason can be used in favor of the morality of B when you presuppose A, the presupposition of A is . . . metaphysics! Without some sort of supernatural principle/framework/entity/etc that supports A, your reasoned morality is built on the same nihilism as the other forms of normative moralities.
Another way to view the inherent shortcomings in these normative moralities is to view them through the lens of authority. Why should I conform to your morality? Why should you conform to your morality? If the answer, when you get to the foundation, is “because it makes me feel good”, then morality is nothing more than etiquette or preference. This is true whether the morality is a simple hedonism, or whether it is couched in much more complexity, such as Darwinist morality (good is to evolve). To attribute any more weight to good feelings than mere preference or taste is an exercise in indulging one’s ego.
To finish out this first edition of trashy’s sophomoric blatherings, I’ll address nihilism. Nihilism, in my opinion, is one of two self-consistent moral frameworks. The other is moral absolutism based on divine natural law. We’ll obviously dive into more detail on that later. However, nihilism also has some weaknesses. One is that most humans seem to have some sort of moral compass/conscience, and the conscience is essential to their being. People who override their conscience tend to accumulate undesirable consequences in their lives. Sure, much of that may be explained by the “morality as etiquette” model (socially, poor etiquette results in negative social consequences). However, there’s something profoundly disturbing to most humans about living in a world where there is no right and no wrong, and where nothing means anything. People stare into the abyss and become profoundly afraid. I don’t think I’ve met a single person who has been able to retain a truly nihilist view for a significant period of time. Usually, their nihilism evolves into a squishy moral relativism or into existentialism.
Clearly, if we are to reject all metaphysics as a moral foundation, we’re choosing to dive headfirst into the abyss. That may be a satisfactory answer for a select few, but the next article will address the alternative, the various metaphysical constructs that can serve as a foundation for morality.
I leave philosophizing to public intellectuals.
Like Max Boot?
I don’t know any of them. that would involve going out in public.
That Trish Minster chick sure knows how to word smith.
TL;DR
STEVE SMITH COUSIN WORD SMITH HIDE IN LIBRARY STACKS, AND BY HIDE MEAN….
LOL!
Tits or GTFO.
*Tapes moobs together and gets camera ready*
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
He must be a nihilist.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/5f58979ca3b1dc1770adb2aa52fc47ed/tenor.gif?itemid=4858779
VSFW
I think the classics work best
Why
trshmnstr you use your tongue prettier than a 20 dollar whore
Then again 20 bucks don’t buy what they did 100 years ago
As I get older I am wondering if morality has not been turned into a detriment in a world where envy motivating the majority into making excuses for horribly evil ideas like theft for political gain and wealth redistribution scams to buy power. I certainly would have lived an easier life if I had cared less about doing the right thing while most people felt no such obligation and even laughed at me for being dumb like that….
Would it though. In the words of David Henderson, The price of unethical behavior is low. It’s the maintenance costs that kill you.
As I get older I am wondering if morality has not been turned into a detriment in a world where envy motivating the majority
The only objection I have is to “turned into”. Envy is a fairly universal characteristic across culture and across time. It’s not new to rationalize that envy using the language and thought processes of the elites, either. As somebody who believes in a fallen world, I definitely think that you can get ahead in this world by playing fast and loose with the rules.
As somebody who believes in a fallen world, I definitely think that you can get ahead in this world by playing fast and loose with the rules.
There are abundant examples of such, after all. It’s why people like to believe in some form of Karma or some kind of spiritual comeuppance after death.
Nihilism, in my opinion, is one of two self-consistent moral frameworks.
“Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”
No, Donny. These men are cowards.
I’m getting fed up with the garbage the internet is giving me in an attempt to answer this question –
What is a reasonable order of magnitude for the number of coins in active circulation at any given time in ancient rome? So long as the quantity and time frame are both identified, I don’t need any particular span, though late republic/early empire would be best.
136 pages into a research study on coin hoards to find out the answer is “We don’t really know.”
I guess you could look at the population and make an assumption regarding the average number of coins in someone’s possession.
I was hoping for a reasonableness check on the amount of coinage available in the markets of the nations in my book. Rome would be an upper bound of a large, highly monetized state.
Though this is a lovely piece of data:
Since these were 417 hoards that never got reclaimed for over a thousand years, we have to assume that’s a small fraction of total coinage.
you do realize economics don’t need to make sense in fantasy literature
Yes, they do.
Especially when the narrator is a merchant.
Sounds about right…
10 billion sesterces
Is there a source for that number other than “Pie’s Ass”?
Pie’s ass is particularly magnificent, but that is the only source sadly. I often looked into ancient economics out of pure curiosity and rarely found something. I remember looking up the cost of land in various time periods between ancient and Renaissance and found little
In those time frames, trading land in fee simple (modern tenure) was rare. Other forms of land tenure predominated, and so you woulnd’t have sales to record, but other transactions, often requiring services.
Like Moonves did at CBS?
That cause only the aristocracy could own that land and land titles only transferred after the previous owner was run off the land by military forces or killed making a stand, I surmise…
or hooking up with the right daughter
Yup…
And speaking of hooking up with the right daughter. Most people remain unaware that the jewelry trend most women are afflicted by was invented so wealthy fathers could marry off their homely daughters. It’s funny to me how the more homely a woman is today, the more likely she is to be bedecked in gauche jewelry…
+1 huge tracts of land.
Wait..
You talking about the land-land, or fat chicks… I am so confused today.
Or +2, I would hope.
It’s probably more reliable than whatever source the UN uses to make AGW claims…
Well I found a data point
These were treasury surpluses, but potentially not strictly in coin form.
The 300million sesterces were from plundering Macedon. So it’s likely to be of mixed form.
Attempting an engineering estimate… 100 million people, a denarius as about an average
daily wage, most people being poor and having perhaps 10 days of pay available, call it 15
for paid monthly, no savings, so you’d have half a months pay on average.
So… about 1.5 billion d in circulation. Some of that will be in larger denominations,
and some in smaller. So, perhaps 1 billion coins in circulation, and the average
man on the street having perhaps 10-30 coins on him.
How many of those 100million were slaves (not paid) and how many were paid in kind rather than in coin?
What, you want a better estimate? Sheesh.
FWIW, a billion seemed high. A quick search indicates that perhaps a third of the italian population were
slaves. I suspect that that was the highest concentration though. It doesn’t change the order of
magnitude estimate. I also note that while perhaps not paid as such, many of the slaves would probably
be handling the market purchases for daily staples, and so probably still had cash on them. Obviously
this would be for trusted slaves in the city. Slaves engaged in mining or agriculture probably less so.
During the high point, I don’t think many people were paid in kind, but I’d have to do some more
research. (Ok, any research, this was an engineering estimate.) IIRC, one of the hallmarks of the
later imperial decline was precisely that people were starting to be paid in kind rather than money.
Roman coins – at least toward the end of the Republic – were also debased. Instead of being pure silver, they would use a inferior metal core and then silver plating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency
I once had a large Roman coin = denarius – that had the shell disintegrating around the edges, exposing the brass interior.
Collecting Roman coins is a fairly inexpensive hobby, especially if you get the coins direct from a hoard; which requires cleaning, etc to free them from the dirt and oxidation.
Roman coins – at least toward the end of the Republic – were also debased.
Gee, that sounds familiar….
When thinking about this specific topic, I was reminded of the beginning of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis – you could have linked to CS Lewis doodles more entertaining that way
My learning curve as a software engineer was all that much steeper as I worked through all of the previously built functions of our product to learn how they worked rather than just trust that they’d do what their name implied. – wow functions had names which implied what they do? wish I had that for the last legacy code I took over
Self documenting code is a more recent concept….
Tagging code “DON’T FUCK THIS UP” isn’t helpful?
Ha, I had some kid the management types had hired here despite my advice a couple of weeks before, check in code into source control using the comment “Fuck this place and the idiots pretending to be running this dumb company” then quit the next day. When they discovered the commit message they all got mad and demanded it be removed, but that is impossible because of corporate audit policy. Whenever I need a pick me up I just go read that comment.
And here you were suggesting he not be hired…
I know. It was worth the laughs.
One of the (insurance) policy admin systems I used to work with – not designed in-house but by a MAJOR American computer services company – named every table and field with a five-to-eight character string that might as well have been randomly-generated. I can only surmise that that company had been foisting the same garbage solution on unsuspecting clients since around the mid-twentieth century.
TBL010z3 isn’t descriptive?
I would assume that’s the field for single-car accidents, no injuries, car totalled, right?
You forgot “That happened on a tuesday.”
Ah, the “3”. Of course.
Of course this system would make sense to someone used to thinking in ICD-10.
Oh, and they didn’t give us a data dictionary, either. They operated on the assumption that they would host our data and do all the programming that might be needed at only ten times or so the cost of us doing it ourselves. The CIO who saddled us with that shit was long gone, of course. So we would get data dumps and take educated guesses at what each column was supposed to represent.
So you do see the genius of it after all.
The lack of data dictionary would have… upset… me. Especially if I’m the one they’re going to come to later asking why their reports don’t seem to be accurate.
Sounds like the usual business model for these companies that peddle a product that leaves their consumers with the same problems addicts have. Nothing will make my hackles come up faster and me producing a veto on bringing in a new product more than a vendor that basically tells you you HAVE to have them d the work. Not a chance in hell. Go opensource.
Good lord. Is it Verisk?
Because we could sit down with a few fifths and discuss their documentation and ‘help’.
The NAIC would like a word…
https://www.naic.org/documents/industry_pcm_p_c_2017.pdf
No, CSC. All my dealings with Verisk were a model of efficiency in comparison.
Verisk is what used to be called ISO – which was collectively owned by most of the major insurers.
So for products created pre-IPO it wouldn’t have made as much sense to try to find extra ways to get cash from clients.
Ugh. Xact is horrible as well. We’ve been trying to get a workable data dictionary for months. They want to do the work in house and charge us an arm and leg for simple things we need.
Yeah, it was always ISO to me and I suspect most of the tech lifers I dealt with.
All of my life I have heard these ideas tossed about and endless claims of good and evil, moral and immoral being subjective. One thing I have noticed is that when the end comes it is nearly universally agreed that life is better than death, not suffering is better than suffering. Any moral system built upon that is acceptable to me.
Suthen, having watched my dad – a man that was about the most independent and capable people I ever knew – turn into a baby, requiring help and 24/7 supervision for the most basic of needs and things, and suffering horribly for over a year with no idea of what was going on, has left me firmly convinced that life is great, but I will eat a bullet before I get to that state. Not for others, but to spare myself that experience.
“requiring help and 24/7 supervision”
My biggest worry. Death doesn’t scare me but the unknown prelude does. I’m hoping for a heart attack or stroke, just not yet.
Yup, if I am lucky enough to get run over by a beer truck I will feel blessed. If I find out I am heading towards a long and debilitating end, I am going to fix that myself.
My father says that he expects to go when he is shot in the back by a jealous husband. He forgets that his wife will kill him in his sleep before that happens.
I am of a like mind Alex. I have to add that it would be as much for consideration of those I love as to spare myself the experience.
I did not mean life in so much diminished capacity.
I suspected as much. More importantly, I suspect nobody here would find a problem with someone making that decision for themselves, while we all would have serious problem with “society” getting the ability to make that decision.
When my FiL died – it was a massive heart attack. He died within minutes, lying in the snow. My wife, of course, was very upset by this.
Me? I said; “At least it was quick. We all wish for a death that comes so quickly.”
I fear a disease or cancer that gnaws at me slowly, and I can face my own mortality for months on end. Bullet to the heart/brain would be preferable.
I even had this conversation with my relatives to make sure nobody was surprised by it. After seeing what happened to my father I came away with life being incredibly precious, but me not being willing to just be alive at any and all costs. I think my dad was just too worried on the impact it would have on those around him to deal with the issue on his own. I may be less of a man that I simply am not going to endure something bad if that is the lot life hands me. I have lived the way I wanted, and I plan to go out the same way.
so the welfare state it is for you. social democrat Suthen
I am not sure how to respond to this comment.
The welfare state is built in large part on utilitarianism – not suffering is better than suffering, and the more people who are not suffering, the better the society. Taking money from people (who won’t suffer because you have taken it) and giving it to people who are suffering because they don’t have enough money is easily justified in the absence of any other moral structure that values things like not taking what isn’t yours or taking responsibility for your own situation in life.
I agree with what you wrote yesterday: laws must respect the universal gravitational constant. Morals/ethics/philosophy must fit the same form.
My own morals or ethics boil down to a Dirty Harry version of the Golden Rule: Do onto others as you would have them do onto you so that you don’t catch a cap in your ass. Corollary: keep a big stick handy for when others show up who want to do onto me things that I would never do unto them.
Like programmers, I’m practical; my notions are tropes, subroutines that I call depending on what I think wades through the data best. If you are only mildly dangerous, I will recommend you to the asylum; if you are generous, I will share my table with you as well.
“I won’t be wronged, I won’t be insulted, and I won’t be laid a hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. ”
– John Bernard Books
The most basic philosophical question that I find interesting is “Is this really it?”, or , rephrased and reversed “Is there anything beyond the scientifically observable universe?” – define observable
Morality, for the purposes of this article, is the framework used to determine whether a certain action/inaction is good or bad. Good is something that conforms to a certain moral framework. Bad is something that does not conform to a certain moral framework. – I dunno dude seems circular
2) normative morality – morality is baed on what is observed, felt, and intuited – haha typo
I believe that the first option is the only consistent moral framework in the total absence of metaphysics. — can there really be total absence of metaphysics
Rape feels good to STEVE SMITH, but feels bad to his victim. – so you are saying 9 out of 10 people at a gang rape enjoy it?
The other is moral absolutism based on divine natural law. We’ll obviously dive into more detail on that later – what tease
I think only a fool believes that there is nothing beyond physical reality, it takes a bigger fool to make a leap from “metaphysics is real and impacts the universe” to a belief that metaphysics existence supports their religion or proves their conception of god is real. It also takes a rather large dose of hubris to conclude that metaphysics actually provides some kind of objective guide to morality.
When you get down to it at the level we are able to interact with metaphysical concepts the truths we can derive from them tend to be not much more than an interplay between evolutionary necessity, social necessity, opinion, and the same sort of if-then decision trees that reasoned morality generates.
In other words, the Jungian archetype of The Heroes Journey is so well founded you have to be a moron to say it does not exist and you can find a plethora of ways to use it to teach, illustrate, and guide. It still however does not tell you what “should” be, merely what you must do to achieve a certain result. Answering that “should” be requires the invokation of some kind of god with will and volition that stands as the ultimate ruler against which all is measured and I am sorry but no one has ever managed to come up with a convincing argument that such an entity exists. The best I have managed is to see is the essentially Deist argument that whatever is behind metaphysics is god and even that is weak as it is does nothing whatsoever to tell us what should be.
there is nothing beyond physical reality
agreed: the only way to even assert that is necessarily tautologous
We come through the Enlightenment to two conclusions:
a/ Reason cannot prove the Thing behind the metaphysics
b/ Religion cannot prove the Thing behind the metaphysics
So what is the heroes journey then? Every single culture that we are aware of that has ever existed has had some version of that basic story embedded in their culture. It is not physical, you cannot touch it, see it, hear it, feel it, or smell it and yet nearly all humans respond to the story in all it’s forms and nearly every culture has their own version at it’s very root so how can you say it is not real and not universal (for humans at least)?
There is something very real in these deep story archetypes that have no physical phenomenon backing them up so how is that not a form of metaphysics? Where most theists go wrong is in the assumption that the archetypes are by necessity a reflection of god. And they may be, but there is certainly no evidence for it because while these kinds of stories seem to have some kind of universal hold on the human psyche they do not call all humans to the same actions.
One person can hear a version of the Heroes journey and be inspired to pursue a life of science and rationality, another can pursue the life of a hermit isolating himself from the things of the world, yet another can become inspired to become a warlord and purge what her perceives as evil from the world. The fact that the Heroes journey has a near universal appeal and acts as a frequent source of inspiration and call to greatness is undeniable, the problem is that it never defines what greatness it or how one should pursue it.
Admitting the existence of the metaphysical concept of the heroes journey is one thing, tying it to a deity belief is something else entirely
A load of bunk invented by torturing the examples to fit an archetype that does not fit them.
I think only a fool believes that there is nothing beyond physical reality
Is an operating computer program physically real? The platform is obviously real, binary switches cycling, but is the program physical?
A similar question could be asked about the mind vs. the brain.
is the program physical
Yes. It is and can be explained in a purely chemical/physical form without leaving out any aspect of it. Electrons flow across material junctions in predictable ways, resulting in predictable outputs. Just because the physical processes can be abstracted into a machine language and further abstracted to a compiled/interpreted language doesn’t mean that there’s anything going on except for electrons moving through materials.
Are the languages that the physical processes are described in real?
A better question is Are Dragons real?
As far as we can tell no, they have never existed as they seem to violate several rules of evolutionary development here on earth. They have definitely never existed within the time frame of human existence.
And yet cultures all over the planet have creatures identifiable as dragons in their mythology. How is it that cultures which have had absolutely no contact with each other, even indirectly all somehow came up with the same imaginary creature if that creature is not in some way “real”?
The answer is that no dragons are not physically real, however they are very real as a metaphysical construct somehow buried deep in the human psyche which is why differnent people at different times and places all called forth the same imagery to describe a creature of their fears.
Another better question…
Are Pokemon real. They do not exist, they are complete works of fiction an yet I can see them and interact with them through a variety of mechanisms.
Yes I know the computer programs can be broken down to the electro chemical reactions going on in the transistors but that only describes the program. The Pokemon are something different from the program. They are a fictional artifact with no physical reality produced by the physical processes going on in that device
I think you’re confusing the idea that a computer program’s modeling of a thing is “artificial,” with the idea that “artificial” can mean, “not real.” … ? The program itself may not really be the thing it’s modeling, but it’s still physically real.
This is usually cashed out in terms of supervenience.
Call me a fool, then. Do I believe there’s more than what is currently observable? Given that scientific discoveries are regular occurrences, mos def.
Call me a fool, then. Do I believe there’s more than what is currently observable?
If I may ask, then… And I mean this in the most earnest way. What keeps you from becoming the most self-absorbed, megalomaniacal, manipulative, self-serving person you possibly can? Sure, those things are pejoratives in current society, but society holds no authority over you.
It seems to me that if I legitimately believe that I have nobody and nothing to answer to, I’d be doing whatever pleased me, damn the consequences to others. Sure, I’m limited by the fact that when I piss the wrong people off, men with guns haul me off to a cage, but I’d be able to maximize self pleasure while skirting more or less within the good graces of the people with the most power.
>>you from becoming the most self-absorbed, megalomaniacal, manipulative, self-serving person you possibly can
I’m already there, amigo. 😉
What keeps you from becoming the most self-absorbed, megalomaniacal, manipulative, self-serving person you possibly can?
I thought I already answered that one; basically, you have to ask yourself one question
What keeps you from becoming the most self-absorbed, megalomaniacal, manipulative, self-serving person you possibly can?
I am an atheist. There is nothing beyond the physical world.
I am the most self-absorbed, megalomaniacal, manipulative, self-serving person I can be.
And I achieve everything I want by being a kind, generous, cooperative individual who works to achieve mutually beneficial results with everyone that I come into contact with. Because this is the most efficient way to get what I want.
Yup.
Because this is the most efficient way to get what I want.
Is it? Maybe it’s that I’d be a supervillain if I were an atheist, but if I were confident that I had nothing coming to me after I die, it seems that relationships and mutual benefit and the like are just tools to be used when beneficial and dropped like a hot potato when burdensome. Fuck family, fuck being altruistic, fuck principle. I’d say and do anything to get what I want.
There is probably a huge component of inherent character involved as to whether you can truly say FYTW to everybody and everything. My dad could be shady, but I didn’t have a taste for trying to play fast and loose with the rules, so I didn’t.
I wonder if the inherent character merely changes the method, but not the end goal. For example, I tend to shy away from controversy (a lawyer who shys away from controversy, can you imagine?). I would say everything to placate somebody and then go around them when they’re no longer in my presence if I didn’t care about their well-being the way I care about my own. other people are downright abrasive assholes. Yet others find community and mutual benefit to be largely beneficial to them personally, so they genuinely work to the benefit of the community.
Maybe it’s that I’d be a supervillain if I were an atheist,
So you believe that you’re evil at heart, and it is only the fear of eternal damnation that keeps you in line?
Must be a miserable life.
“If I may ask, then… And I mean this in the most earnest way. What keeps you from becoming the most self-absorbed, megalomaniacal, manipulative, self-serving person you possibly can? Sure, those things are pejoratives in current society, but society holds no authority over you.”
You always have yourself to answer to, and unless you have a personality disorder, that matters to your long term happiness. What keeps me from being the guy you describe is that I want to have self-respect. I want to look in the mirror and honestly believe I’m a good person according to my own standards. I consider my brother to be as you describe above, and he’s a consistent church-goer. I don’t think he considers himself a villain, but he’s completely untrustworthy
I don’t think any sort of generalization has value here. Morality is intensely personal, and we are all the moral heroes of our own stories.
My ex-evangelical FIL once asked me that during a family holiday meal. I looked around the table and simply replied, “You are. You all are enough to keep me from…” what you said. I like people. I like pets. Etc. That’s enough for me.
(ex-FIL, who is evangelical)
Both strict materialism and spirituality are unprovable. Both require what amounts to a leap of faith. In the case of spirituality, the leap of faith is that the tenets of the particular spirituality are true, even though unprovable.
For strict materialism, the leap of faith is that nothing exists other than the material world.
OT: She has a degree in economics I am told…
It’s not often when they admit to being a watermelon, rarer still when they trumpet it.
They’re feeling their oats these days. The revolution is nearly at hand now, tovarisch!
You make a real great point SF. These watermelons used to hide the fact that they were marxist hacks using a manufactured calamity to peddle an evil ideology. Now we have people like Karla Marx that are not only not afraid to peddle it, but think they are smart and cool for doing that. Granted, it could simply be a complete lack of self awareness and a case of stupidity in action, but damn…
Like Donald saying that making abortion illegal would mean women getting on being jailed. Everyone knows it; only Donald was impolitic enough to actually say it. Stop soft-pedaling to the non-existent center. Bring the truth.
The Dems have a low-IQ barista that believes her own press and ends up thinking she’s a policy wonk as a result. Keep ’em coming, Alex. Maxine won’t live forever and someone will need to take her place.
The sad thing is, O-C is in a dead safe district, and will probably be in Congress until the the dissolution of the Republic.
Just until she is primaried by a transgendered african-asian-hispanic in a wheel chair.
I doubt it. The political machine is there to take care of its own. Her winning that primary was a fluke, and I wouldn’t count on another one.
You may notices that whenever proggies get together, intersectionality (like everything else they push) is for other people.
+1 James Watt
RC Dean is right. It is her seat until she decides to leave it. At least she probably never be a Senator. Upstate NY would never go for it.
I’m thinking she flames out in a Presidential run in 2032. Poor thing will have to learn to scrape by on millions in speaking fees and a ghost-written hagiography.
I’m thinking she flames out in a Presidential run in 2032.
Can NY representatives keep their Congressional seat while running for President?
Upstate NY would never go for it.
Although that hardly matters anymore. Gillibrand and Chucky Moobs get elected easily after all.
“oor thing will have to learn to scrape by on millions in speaking fees and a ghost-written hagiography.”
Are you interviewing for that job? It would be epic…
I think it depends on state law. Rand had issues because he was up for re-election as Senator in the same year he wanted to run for President. The KY legislature had do pass something to allow his name to appear on the ballot twice.
To the best of my recollection Lloyd Bensten was reelected Senator the year he ran as VP candidate because TX law allowed it.
NYC + suburbs is well over half the state’s population. She’s a shoo-in for senator when Moobs kicks it.
Moobs is a cannily political operator, brings home the bacon and backs Isreal. And Gillibrand “betraying” Al Franken means that she’s probably going to get primaried or quietly told she is done.
Upstate NY understood that those two would count for something when the really had to. AOC is never going to have this sort of low cunning.
She’s a shoo-in for senator when Moobs kicks it.
I don’t think so. She’s got her seat for as long as she wants. But, she isn’t going much higher. The NY Democratic party is happy to have her strut around the camera for now. She’s cute. She’s a fresh face. The kids love her.
But eventually the freshness gets stale. And all the magical pixie dust she’s promising starts not showing up. And people realize that, rather than a rising star, she’s become a punchline. And if you run her for Senate, there’s a solid chance you could lose the seat.
On the plus side for her, as I said, she’s got the House seat for as long as she wants it. The pay and opportunities there aren’t all too shabby. And she’s young, not half bad looking. Maybe she could hook herself up with a hedge fund manager or a tech exec.
I actually wonder if the guy she ran out will primary her (seeing as she only one the primary because barely anyone showed up, he might have a good chance if he actually tried)
Sex scandal will take care of her.
Donkey or Zebra?
Carlson had one of her social democrat fellow travelers on last night. She was arguing for total renewable energy. Solar powered airplanes even so that Algor could jet around the world and plug for total renewable energy. It was pure gibberish. The woman had no grasp of physics whatsoever. The rantings of the insane.
“As a matter of fact, it’s not just possible that we will create jobs and economic activity by transitioning to renewable energy, but it’s inevitable that we are going to create jobs,” Ocasio-Cortez said. “It’s inevitable that we’re going to create industry,
and then seize that industry.
Ocasio-Cortez also suggested the federal government should nationalize Tesla’s technology, following the company’s receipt of tax subsidies.
PEOPLE ELECTED HER.
buy ammo. buy lots and lots of ammo.
I mentioned it before:
She’s not wrong about the “transition” to renewable energy creating jobs. Renewables (really, wind and solar) are intermittent, so you still need your baseline power infrastructure. Renewables are additive to a baseline infrastructure that needs to be sufficient to supply all your power. What she is calling for is a doubling of our generating capacity. That’s gonna mean more jobs in the generation industry, no question.
Of course, everybody’s electrical bills will double, triple, or more, so there’s that.
she left out the FDR part of her plan where she packs SCOTUS with sycophants and “displaces” all the AGW skeptics.
My bill won’t double nor triple. I will simply have electricity for 12 or 8 hours per day.
Rationing is a sign of equality. You should be grateful.
Texas mom…..
Sounds like she taught a valuable lesson about bringing a samurai sword to a gun fight.
What type of samurai sword? A No-Dachi? A wakizashi? Chokuto? You can’t be that vague with these things.
I would love for one of those public intellectual types to attempt to tell me why this is totally not a sign of a diseased, corrupt society.
“The government should naturally accumulate the best, brightest, most accomplished people. Those people should earn in accordance with their status as the most accomplished. It follows that, in a healthy society, the capitol city have the highest concentration of wealth and income.”
Easy-peasy.
“The government should naturally accumulate the best, brightest, most accomplished people.”
Defend that statement. It’s the crux of the entire argument and yet rarely is it defended, but it is in itself not self evident.
(I know you are being facetious, but seeing as this is the type of argument you might see…)
“It is through government that a person can do the most good in the world. Because government has the power, and the opportunity, to do the most good, the best, brightest, most accomplished people will naturally be attracted to it. Because the private sector has so many limitations and constraints, it is the natural home of the second-raters. Nobody stays in a limited, constrained environment if they can do better, so the best will be sorted into the government, and the rest will be stranded in the private sector.”
Another case of someone telling us how smart they are.
as a matter of security, wouldn’t you want these functions distributed (into a volcano! amirite).
Since I don’t want any of those functions to exist, the last thing I want is to have these functions secure.
Do we have a mole inside that deep-state organization to thank for tweeting that nugget out?
Did this guy just want to go back to jail, or did he simply not think this through?
OT: I hope all you kiddies stick around for afternoon lynx ’cause creepy uncle Q has got a special surprise!
Now hit my mutherfuckin’ theme music?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-vFBpSAnAo
sitsonedgeofchair.exe
@RCDean
Wisconsin lame-duck Republican throes
Early Wednesday, Wisconsin’s Republican-led state Assembly and Senate pushed through a slate of bills that would limit the power of Gov.-elect Tony Evers (D) and the newly-elected Democratic attorney general, Josh Kaul.
In principle, moving power out of the executive and into the legislature is probably a good thing. Doing it as you are about to lose the executive means you aren’t doing it for principled reasons. May be a good example of doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. I don’t really know exactly how they limited the power of the governor and AG, though.
I thought you’d be intrigued; your position on lame-ducks is particularly principled.
As for this particular, the office of Wisconsin government strikes me like most government: if it were as limited in scope and budget as it should be, it would barely matter what it attempted or who held it.
Oh, yeah, there’s the lame duck thing, as well. I didn’t think to factor that in. The fact that you did a right thing during a lame duck session doesn’t mean it isn’t illegitimate, because to my mind, anything done during a lame duck session is illegitimate, with the possible exception of a legislature that isn’t going to see any of its members change because the recent election.
The legislature imposed rules that the governor and attorney general could not undo actions taken by the previous governor and attorney general without legislative approval. This was limited to specific actions and I only remember one — it blocks the new attorney general from exiting a lawsuit by several states against the feds regarding Obamacare. The new AG had specifically campaigned to pull out of the lawsuit.
The net effect is a huge logjam. The new democratic Gov and AG will sue. This will get appealed up to the Wisconsin Supreme Court which is dominated by conservatives.
I’m not even sure that qualifies as doing the right thing.
It isn’t the right thing.
And the Dems can solve the problem by taking over the house and senate in the next election.
as Mojeaux sez: boom!
Looks like an good Trashy article (as always), unfortunately too busy
doing government make-workworking to read now. I just wanted to do a quick OT rant.Co-workers pretending they care about HW Bush funeral/GHW Bush in general. It’s stupid and I expect just a reason to sit around watching TV. Also I think the full week of ceremony and mourning is a troubling trend. They are just people and our political class was never intended to be treated like royalty. The dude was the hired help for four years. His funeral should be short, dignified, inexpensive and last a few hours like anyone else’s.
“The only good Republican is a dead Republican.”
In the media’s eyes for sure. The zeitgeist I’m specifically talking about however is bigger than partisan politics. This phenomenon of near religious reverence for politicians on both sides of the aisle strikes me as decidedly anti-american. It seems as though populace is clamoring for a royal family (see all the retarded interest in the British royal family every time someone dies, gets married, etc).
*Religious reverence when a politician dies
It’s part of the general degradation of small-r republicanism in this country.
http://www.kera.org/radio/listen/
http://think.kera.org/2018/12/06/sons-of-the-founding-fathers/
Krys Boyd is on right now. Great topic.
She’s the best interviewer in America (but a naive prog).
Hey Don; just wanted to let you and Suthen know it was -13F and 84% humidity here this morning. I know that’s nowhere near as uncomfortable as +25F and 100% humidity, but it was still a bit chilly. I can’t imagine living down south in the winter. Brrr!
?
That sounds miserable.
Later if I sober up we can talk more about Brazilian Rosewood.
I look forward to that. Not sure if/when I’ll be on tonight, but I’ll be around tomorrow for sure.
Hey Mike, it’s 55 and raining, no yard work today
Sound like something Tulpa would say!
30’s and snowing. Much better then 30’s and raining.
Same down here. However, “Jugsy” is up there.
Oh, no one knows the numbers better than I do: I remain down South for many very good reasons!
I was just picking favorable data points: our worst and your best; nothing to base a lifestyle or a wardrobe on.
FWIW, humidity below freezing doesn’t mean much. It exists, theoretically. I’ve never actually worked in anything worse than -10°F.
I’m bald and wearing shorts; Saturday’s golf will probably be rained out. But I played Monday at 44°F, 80%, 20MPH (and was one over through five holes at one point!).
Yeah, I noticed the humidity was high and thought I’d take one more poke.
I’m going to save that link and look it over closer after work. I hope to get chickens next year, and plan on keeping them year around. Knowing the sensitivity of chickens to air quality, determining the proper amount of ventilation while minimizing heat loss is forefront on my mind. This looks to be some very helpful info.
It’s a very standard psychometric chart that happens to be on a poultry site.
FWIW, the guy who services your HVAC probably doesn’t know how to read it or what to do with it.
My maternal grandfather helped build McMurdo and had to winter over a couple of times. He said they had to wait until it warmed up to -50° F before it was safe enough to go outside and work.
On topic:
You’re stumbling upon important things here and, as always, I fall back on my favorite philosopher Kierkegaard (shameless self promotion: https://glibertarians.com/2018/01/kinky-kierkegaard/)
I think that you must have something beyond the realm of human debate to create a code that is not susceptible to being chipped away by other humans. Succinctly, if G-d doesn’t exist, it would be necessary to invent him. Did Moses actually interface with G-d on Mt. Sinai? Who knows? However, when he came down and said “hey guys, I’ve got some new rules that you’re not gonna like. You’re not allowed to fuck each other’s wives anymore or steal or lie and some other stuff”, it carries a lot more weight when he says “G-d says so” vs. “I said so”. Frankly, rejecting the notion of any kind of higher power, IMO, almost inevitably leads to relativism or nihilism. Like J. Peterson says, even if you don’t strictly believe in G-d, act as if you do.
Me from tuesday: ” It doesnt matter to me if you think God or the Universe endowed us, it is good enough for me that we agree we have inalienable rights.”
The problem with invoking god as the ultimate source of morality is how do you define and understand god?
While it is true that it is impossible to prove that god does not exist it is very easily possible to prove that the god of every major religion ever was totally made up. So when you fall back on “this is good because God says so” how do you know that God says that? It is not like he actually has regular conference calls with all of humanity and gives us clear unambiguous instructions for the next decade. The best we have is listening to charlatans and shamans (and good luck telling the difference between them), our own intuition and dozens of “holy texts” all of this contain numerous easily proven falsehoods (for example, the sermon on the mount never happened, we know it never happened because no one else ever wrote about it. A crowd the size of the largest cities in that part of the world gathering in one place to listen to a guy talk would have been big news and someone contemporary with it happening would have written about) a bunch of historical inaccuracies, and where there are valid lessons to be drawn they are generally buried in badly obfuscated language not to mention the problem that some things we all take as pretty self evidently evil like slavery were explicitly endorsed in all of those holy texts.
Now of course non of that means that one of those books isn’t necessarily metaphysically true but it does mean that you can’t use any of them as literal instruction manuals (sorry evangelicals) for moral behavior but the problem is when you start picking and choosing which parts are “true” and which are not you are right back at exactly the same place Athiests with reasoned moral codes are because you have no more evidence to support your personal interpretation of god and religion than they have to support their moral principles.
Worse, since if god exists he did not bother to leave us an actual useful instruction manual you have the problem of sociopaths and psychopaths twisting those principles to the production of evil and misery.
One of the major problems I have with Peterson is his “act as if you believe god exists” line. Because he is completely dodging the question of WHICH GOD! Yes I know he means the god of the Judeo Christian tradition but the problem is the Judeo Christian Enlightenment god literally didn’t exist until enlightenment thinkers created him 400 years ago. The idea that each person is made in the image of god and has inherent worth and dignity is categorically an anti Christian belief and in the 14th century espousing such an idea would have gotten you burned as a Heretic. In the Bible Jesus explicitly endorses Slavery by saying Slaves owed good service to their masters. How the hell people like Peterson square the belief that he is acting as if god exists when he is utterly ignoring the reality that the god he is acting as if exists is a thoroughly modern creation of Diests I will never understand.
This is related:
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/11/7/long-barisas-recovering-beauty-of-sex/
I’d like to hear what Trashy has to say about this.
And they’ll get to do it again and again at every job they take. Can’t say they aren’t preparing them for a future of being treated like a child.
Count how many mentions of socialism there are in this Guardian retrospective on Chavez’s revolution. I found two. At the tailend – one quoting Chavez himself and another referencing the name of his party. The rest of the article merely refers to him as a left wing strong man or populist.
Populism…POPULISM! That great evil. Just like Trump.
Nope, I’m not clicking on that. *hovers* Oh, whew.
Socialists spend more time dissociating themselves from their brethren than they do maligning their opposition.
There is a good reason for that.
Heroic Mulatto and his posse can call off their quest. He’ll have to settle for his wife and not a thicc latina drunk on the notion that he rescued her from Costa Rican cartels.
The other main theme on CNN today is undemocratic. As in, the GOP is usurping the will of democracy in Wisconsin and North Carolina (where the media finally found a case of voter fraud that they were interested in investigating).
Resurrect arranged marriages in the Western world.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-marriage-decision-everything-forever-or-nothing-ever-again-1399786474
I’m not an expert on this, nor am I married—but I’ve read a lot about it,
you could have put this sentence first and saved me a lot of fucking time . . .
LOL. Now I want the 20 seconds I wasted on that back.
Ugh. By whom. Too many people have parents that would make bad decisions for them even if well meaning.
Arranged marriages with veto power seem to work well.
Parents arrange, then potential spouses meet and decide whether or not to go forward.
Come bathe in the abyss. It’s delightfully dark and calm and the water is warm like fresh blood.