And he looked around and said:
I’m lonely –
I’ll make me a world.
James Weldon Johnson[i]
This is the first in a three-part subseries about the Plan of Salvation. This article deals with our life before we came to earth.
In the comments on the first article, interest was expressed in a comment I made about the Latter-day Saint view of the afterlife. Specifically, I said: “[W]e believe that only people who have accepted the gospel, and received the required ordinances will be able to live in God’s presence. There isn’t really a burning hell in Mormon theology, simply various degrees of distance from God.”
So, if interest was expressed in the afterlife, why am I writing about what happened before we were born? In a word, context. Our beliefs about the afterlife are part of what we call “the Plan of Salvation” which refers to the overarching plan our Heavenly Parents (The Church is clear in the doctrine that we also have a Heavenly Mother, and that He and She work as a team.[ii]) have for our development and future. The goal of the plan is specifically stated in by the Lord: “For behold this is my work and my glory – to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”[iii] Immortality is just what it sounds like – we will all be raised in the resurrection and be immortal. Eternal life or exaltation is the life which God the Father lives. Immortality is a gift from the Father made possible by the Atonement of Christ. Exaltation is also made possible by the Atonement, but can only be achieved by “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”[iv] Thus, the goal of the plan is for us to be immortal and live again with our Heavenly Parents and be like them – in short, they want us to become gods and goddesses – their peers, friends, and colleagues.[v]
Spirit Children
Why would they want this for us? Because they are our Parents, and they love us. They don’t claim that title by happenstance. The scriptures agree: God is the father of our spirits.[vi] Every parent worth his or her salt wants their children to grow up to reach their adult potential. Our Heavenly Parents are no different. Indeed, they set the standard for earthly parents to follow.
As with all parents, they undertook to educate us with the things we would need as we embarked upon our journey to adulthood.[vii] One of these things was the use of our moral agency.[viii] As might be expected, some spirits advanced more quickly than others, and God marked these spirits for leadership roles on earth.[ix]
Council in Heaven
Eventually, we had progressed as far as we could. It was time to leave home and go out into the world. Our Parents called a council to discuss the plan. Jesus, our eldest brother, presented the plan: We would be born into mortality, having no memory of the time before our mortal birth. Prophets would be sent to teach us why we were there and how to return to our Parents. We would continue to learn to exercise our agency by being tempted by both good and evil. Correct use of our agency would enable us to resist the evil temptations. We would make mistakes and commit sins which would render us unable to return to our Parents. Because sin is inescapable in the mortal condition, a Savior would be provided who would make atonement for all our sins, enabling us to return. This Savior would be Jesus. Because of our agency, some of us would choose not to accept the atonement, and thus choose not to return.
War in Heaven
Lucifer, one of the advanced spirits, had his own plan. He would force us to live in such a way that all of us would return. Because it was his plan, the glory and honor would go to Lucifer.[x] Lucifer’s plan was rejected, and he rebelled. Because of this rebellion, he and the spirits which wanted to live by his plan were cast out of heaven.[xi] This amounted to one-third of all the spirits in the council.[xii] They became the devil and his angels, and are here to tempt us and draw us away from God’s plan. Because of their choices, they will never enter mortality, will never have a body, and will never have the chance to progress to Godhood.
Time to Go
Through uncounted time we had matured as spirits. In the end, we had helped to cast out one-third of our brothers and sisters when they rebelled against our Parents. With the war moved to earth, it was time for us to leave our Heavenly Parents, and enter mortality. One by one we approached the veil which would block our memories, bade our Parents farewell, and “[w]e walked, as it were, through an open door. The door was closed behind us.”[xiii]
[i] James Weldon Johnson, God’s Trombones Seven Negro Sermons in Verse (New York, Penguin Books, 1927) “The Creation” p 17
[ii] LDS.org – Heavenly Mother; Paulsen, David L. & Pulido, Martin “A Mother There”: A Survey of Historical Teachings about Mother in Heaven (pdf)
[iii] Pearl of Great Price Moses 1:39
[iv] LDS.org – Eternal Life, Articles of Faith 1:3
[v] Chieko N. Okazaki, Sanctuary (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1997), 59
[vi] Acts 17:29, Doctrine and Covenants 76:24, Romans 8:16
[ix] Abraham 3:22–25; Jeremiah 1:4–6; Alma 13:3–5
[xi] Abraham 3:27–28; D&C 29:36–38; 2 Peter 2:4; Revelation 12:7–9
[xiii] Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee: Eleventh President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. Clyde J. Williams (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 20–21.
I have removed the “Mormons in the Mist” title because the Prophet has asked that we not use the term “Mormons” to refer to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Bokonon had a different explanation.
Bokonon’s explanation is as much a foma as Smith’s, believe the one that makes you brave and kind and healthy and happy.
Yeah, but most religions claim to have The Truth. Bokonon admitted right up front that all he had to peddle was bullshit.
I remember as a kid once wondering how it was I would up in the only possible place on earth that had the only one true religion and the one true God, while all the other poor peasants on earth had false religion and false gods, which were all of the devil. I actually asked one of the local matriarchs of our local church about this. Which caused the entire herd to fly into fits of holy outrage. Sort of like the SJWs of today, only with skirts that covered the knees. I learned for the zillionth time again that I was going to hell.
Granfalloons rarely like having the falsity of their karass pointed out to them.
As Bokonon reminds us:
“If you wish to study a granfalloon,
Just remove the skin of a toy balloon.”
I remember as a kid once wondering how it was I would up in the only possible place on earth that had the only one true religion and the one true God, while all the other poor peasants on earth had false religion and false gods, which were all of the devil.
Here’s the part that I could never reconcile myself to, though, how could an all-good, all-loving, and all-powerful God reconcile Him(/Her/It)self to that widespread a damnation? Sure, there’s a lot of pricks out there that deserve damnation. And that, as far as it goes, is fine. But, what about all the poor fools whose only sin was being wrong. Not morally or offensively wrong. Just theologically wrong. They might well have lived their lives perfectly well, have been kind to other people and only had the best of intentions. They just got the details of God wrong. Is He(/She/It) going to damn them for all eternity because of nothing more than a mistake of ignorance, rather than malice? If someone was a decent person and in good faith believed that the answer was atheism, is God going send that person to an eternity of torture? To me, all of that seems like a slap in the face to the notion of an all-good, all-loving, and all-powerful God. I mean, sure, I can see God mocking the person’s soul and making sarcastic quips at the person’s expense for a few millennia. But, an eternity of torture?
Not exactly theologically accurate, but Dante placed them in his first circle of Hell, which didn’t have any real punishments; it was actually nicer there than in purgatory. They weren’t doomed to eternal damnation either, they’d would only be stuck there until the second coming of Christ.
In the Catholic schools, we were taught that ignorance of the faith would allow you to get into heaven (or purgatory for a time) by just living a good life. As it wouldn’t be fair to punish people who never heard the word. But those who had heard the word and didn’t believe would be sent to hell (or purgatory), and that the true punishment in hell was that you had spent some time (during your judgement) in God’s presence, and would never be allowed back into it.
But those who had heard the word and didn’t believe would be sent to hell (or purgatory), and that the true punishment in hell was that you had spent some time (during your judgement) in God’s presence, and would never be allowed back into it.
But, that’s what I can’t reconcile myself to. An all-good, all-loving, and all-powerful God is going to send someone to hell for getting theology wrong? If that were the case, he’d have equipped us all with infallible bullshit detectors that we’d all inherently know what the one true Word is. But, we don’t have those infallible bullshit detectors. We’re all stuck muddling our way through a thousand contradictory beliefs and interpretations, using our best guess at which one is the Truth. Saying you’re damned because you got it wrong, even if you heard it, sounds downright sadistic.
wdalasio: There was a stand up comic I remember who had a bit about this. The joke was that these tribal people, living happy lives, enjoying sex, drugs, and everything else they could would still go to heaven if they believed they were living a good life… until the missionaries came and taught them about God. The comedian ends the bit with, “So why are you ruining their lives by telling them about this?”
And it’s that kind of item that makes Pascal’s Wager fail for me. Pascal’s Wager only works if there’s a general set of principals that are agreed upon by most of the religions, and that there’s only two options. Once you add in the hundreds (if not thousands) of deities that have been worshiped through history, the only safe bet on Pascal’s Wager is agnostic, and hope that whatever afterlife exists will judge you on something you’ve done. The other option is that everyone’s afterlife is based on their beliefs in life, which leads to other troublesome thoughts.
(The Church is clear in the doctrine that we also have a Heavenly Mother, and that He and She work as a team.[ii])
Well that hardly comports with my patriarchal worldview.
*tugs on neckbeard, retires to basement pillow fort*
I hope you at least named it Fort Kickass.
My waifu body pillow is no Mitsuko, sadly.
Ya’ll just better hope I never get the source code. Or I’m gonna fuck up all this living peacefully forever, playing harps on clouds shit. Ain’t gonna be nuthin but drankin, hookers and blow, Mexican ass sex, weed, and fornicatin. Forever. The end.
So you’re going to create Libertopia? Sounds like fun.
Glibertopia?
Similar – more sarcasm, less energy for the rest.
More shitty puns
Is this old news yet? It’s still funny, that right there, I don’t care who you are. Well, maybe if you’re an aging flower child with 10 cats, it’s sort of cool.
LOL
That is terrifying. You should always fear even the politicians you vote for.
Definition of the HIVE mind.
I saw a twenty something year old girl CRYING because Herself was on stage in front of her.
I lose a little more faith in humanity everyday.
The young ladies of today have replaced Donny Osmond with a hateful old bag politician.
Donny Osmond. Very topical.
When you give up your religion, it gets replaced.
that has everything i despise in this world.. and the cherry on top was white people “dancing”.
/shudder
Wow. Much diversity there.
They all identify as brown peoples.
This article answers the question Gadianton asked me in a previous thread about why I consider Mormons outside of big-tent Christianity.
I would be happy to be wrong.
And to take a shot at my own faith: “Sssssssshhhhhh, be quiet. The Baptists think they are the only ones here.”
I am not a Christian of any stripe, but I always considered the defining belief to be the idea of Jesus as “begotten not made.’ If you believe Jesus is God born of man you are a Christian, otherwise you aren’t. this to me parallels the defining belief of Islam, “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.” I don’t intend this to disparage any faith, but there sort of has to be some core belief that is shared for sects to be sects and not fully separate religions.
My understanding is that the central tenet of Christianity is the Apostle’s Creed, which includes the belief that JC was crucified, died, was buried, was dead for three days, then rose and ascended to Heaven. The Nicene Creed is the “begotten, not made” one, and I think that’s mostly important to the various “episcopal” churches, i.e. churches with “ranks” of officials.
The council of Nicea was the ecumenical council that defined Christianity. I think you will find that even the anti hierarchical protestant sects accept it.
But it also includes the died and resurrected tenet. So you are not wrong.
That’s the Athanasians versus the Arians?
Yup
Judas has another sads.
It will be fascinating, come the afterlife, to discover which religions got what parts right, and how far off we were in others.
I like that joke. I’ve heard it with the Mormons as the only ones here. as well.
South Park did it, except everyone except the Mormons were sent to Hell. Only Mormons got it right and got into heaven.
Why don’t Southern Baptists have sex standing up?
Someone might see them and think they are dancing.
Why should you never take 2 baptists fishing?
Because they will spend the whole time criticizing you for drinking beer.
Why should you never take 1 baptist fishing?
He will drink all your beer.
One of the first things you are taught as a Baptist is to never make eye-contact with your fellow members in the liquor store.
We’ll never get liquor by the drink in this county as long as the Baptists can stumble to the polls.
My county has a wet/dry vote this November. People finally want development outside the city (which is very wet).
You could not buy a beer in a restaurant in the county I grew up in until as the late 1990s, and liquor by the drink in restaurants was after 2000.
We went the other way, liquor by the drink in town and then liquor stores in the county a few years later.
You know, not many of us have ever lived in a dry county. I’m thinking we must be a pretty small minority. We should form a club. We could call ourselves ‘The Older Dryus’. ?
OK, that was pretty lame.
I technically live in a dryish town (I can buy beer but no booze). No bars but they have beer stores and beer in restaurants. However, I can walk 2 blocks to the connecting small town and they have full service bars that open at 6am. It’s a zoning based restriction based on historical norms, not any current reasons.
Wonder if this predicts a higher turnout, if the newly motivated voter is incrementally Red or Blue. This is going to be fascinating.
We can’t tell much other than I know Blue is historically bad at early voting. And what does this tweet mean by Dallas: Prestonwood or Oak Cliff? Fort Worth is the only Red city in Texas of consequence, so it’s very hard to guess if this turnout is of which flavor.
I wonder if he is comparing apples-to-apples. I’ve not been to the polls yet this cycle, but last cycle (2016) I found that the same early voting station’s wait times varied wildly based on when you went. I went on the last day of early voting for the primary and had to wait for an hour, but for the general I went a few days earlier (same time of day) and had only a 10 minute wait at the same station (in the DFW area, FTR). I’d imagine the first (and last) days of early voting would be the busiest, so I would say it is too early to say anything about turnout.
Specifically, I said: “[W]e believe that only people who have accepted the gospel, and received the required ordinances will be able to live in God’s presence. There isn’t really a burning hell in Mormon theology, simply various degrees of distance from God.”
In case folks are curious about where the “burning hell” thing comes from, the Greek term is Gehenna and refers to a valley on the outskirts of Jerusalem where perpetual burning fires were used to burn trash/bodies/etc.
The main concepts that are communicated by the use of Gehenna are separation, sacrifice/suffering, and the burning up of unwanted things.
How much is literal and how much is metaphorical? Catholics and Protestants don’t really have much to go on to determine that. CS Lewis did a good writeup on a metaphorical interpretation of Hell in The Great Divorce, where he called it the gray city.
Well, the protestants I grew up around, had no reservations about the meaning of it. You were going to hell if you did sinful things. And just about everything outside of sitting in church and helping old ladies across the street was sinful. I had to listen to fire and brimstone preachers ranting about this for many years. I was most definitely going to hell and that was it, just a matter of how long I could stay alive on this rock.
Well, the protestants I grew up around, had no reservations about the meaning of it.
I have no doubt that the condemnation and damnation part is true, but I think the magma chamber setting and guy with horns and a pitchfork is a product of human imagination.
They really believed it literally. Lake of fire, eternal hellfire. It was a part of practically every sermon I heard as a kid. Actually, I don’t know if any of them believed it, but they were going to use it to make you not do shit they didn’t like, or else, you know, hell.
To the extent that anyone even mentioned Hell growing up the few times I was in a church, it was just that: separation from God. No coincidence, though, as I was raised Episcopalian, and C.S. Lewis was a great apologist for the C of E, of which the Episcopal church had been something of a step-child.
You were in one them woke churches. I bet you all sinners also drank alcohol, which all of us real Christians knew, only single sip of, would send you straight to hell fire.
Lol
/definitely didn’t down a 6 pack with my pastor yesterday while watching football
See, this is how religion works these days. The pews were getting mighty empty I spose. So next thing you know, many of those sins were all of the sudden, not so bad. When I was a kid, being gay was a sin, a most definite, no no, you will go to hell. I mean it says something about that right there in the book. So were a lot of things that are ok today, as long as it keeps people coming in. I guess, I don’t know, I haven’t been in a church outside of a couple spiritual churches in Brazil, in like 40 years.
Only the Muslims are true bleevers now, they still stone wiminz if they get all uppity and throw gays off buildings.
So that’s why some of you guys didn’t like us Catholics. I don’t think I’ve ever heard any complaint about drinking (unless it was underage drinking) through my years of Catholic school.
What do you find with every four Catholics?
A fifth!
What’s the difference between Baptists and the Catholics? The Catholics say hi to each other in the liquor store.
Dammit, I was late and I like that one better.
Here’s a common joke: “Whenever you see four Episcopalians, there’s always a fifth.” The gag is that Episcopalian services are where people go when they have a tee time but can’t make up a foursome. It’s not that Episcopalians are alcoholics, per se, but it’s kind of the trademark religion of the WASP, particularly the kind that drinks Scotch and plays golf. Shitlords, in other words. Not only would Communion without wine be wrong, it would be terribly gauche. I mean, grape juice?! The very idea!
Yeah, try getting the Italians and Irish to give up their alcohol. We’ll see how well it goes.
Many years ago, I don’t know where, someone asked a question that I found interesting:
Do you keep your body, more specifically your genitals, in Heaven?
One would think that living in the glow of Divine light would be far superior to any pleasures of the flesh. Does LDS have anything to say about that?
Something about getting rid of the corruptible and putting on the incorruptible. So, basically, no. A penis is corruptible, as is all flesh. You get your new robot or digital body and whether you get a non-flesh penis with it, that’s another question. But could we really have toxic masculinity in heaven? Feminists agree, the answer is no.
Zardoz was right, the penis is evil! Go forth and CLEANSE!
ZARDOZ SPEAKS TO YOU, HIS CHOSEN ONE. CORRECT! THE PENIS IS EVIL, FOR IT SHOOTS SEEDS THAT CREATE NEW LIFE, AND BRING A PLAGUE OF BRUTALS UPON THE EARTH….BUT THE GUN IS GOOD, FOR IT SHOOTS DEATH, AND PURIFIES THE FILTH OF BRUTALS! ZARDOZ HAS SPOKEN.
The resurrection will create us with perfect bodies. “43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; …” (Alma 11:43). So I would say that we’ll still have our genitals.
This brings up some interesting questions. Will these bodies require food? If so, will they produce waste? What purpose does having genitals serve?
Milan Kundera asked the question of whether G-d defecates. If not, we were not truly created in His image; if so, why do we hide it away?
Going from personal opinion here:
Require Food? No, but they can process it — see Jesus’ visit to the apostles after the resurrection.
Produce Waste? I believe that a perfect body will process food perfectly — leaving no waste.
Purpose of Genitals? I would think you of all people know what the purpose of genitals is 😉 I suspect that even gods enjoy sex.
If the afterlife doesn’t include the ability to take a poop so good my pants fit better, I don’t think I want to visit.
Pants in the afterlife? I’m going buck naked! It’s how I came into the world and it’s how I’ll leave it!
I will be rocking some sweet flowing robes. Like the Lama.
Slippers, sweat pants, 80’s ringer t-shirt, and a bathrobe are far, far superior to going naked.
Bring all the goddesses to your yard.
Striking
Moroni agrees with Tundra.
He was great in Johnny Dangerously.
“Moroni deported to Sweden. Says he’s not from there!”
That always cracks me up.
If not, we were not truly created in His image;
I always took that to mean we were created in his spiritual image, not his physical image.
Ditto. Humans seem to me that humans are defined by our ability to reason and love, not on the fact that we have ten fingers and ten toes.
Yes but none of the pants have zippers right next to them anymore.
I find Mormon theology interesting in that it is, perhaps, the most humane and freedom friendly of any I have encountered. That God of the LDS seems like a reasonable dude in wanting to have his children becomes Gods themselves. It is, quite clearly, an extremely American faith.
That;s why he’s called the Latter Day Dude. He’s woke, bro.
Thanks. This goal gives us something to shoot for beyond harps and clouds. We may build Hyperion’s Glibertopia yet. 😉
Bluff called. President Trump Announces Aid Cuts to Multiple Countries Over Illegal Caravan
Conspiracy Theory: The caravan thing is a false flag set up by Trump to justify The Wall.
The man’s a genius! Put ’em up at Holiday Inn Expresses all over the country and send the bills to the various embassies.
Too weak. This is actually quite outrageous. It;s really nothing less than a attempted invasion of the United States in an attempt to overwhelm our resources and make us a one party country which will find socialism as the only answer to all of our newfound problems.
The people in the caravan are mostly useful idiots and the organizers could care less if they all die right now, there are millions more to replace them. If it succeeds, it will be followed by another and another, until leftists have the necessary votes to usher in their socialism.
The response should be lot more harsh that just cutting some meaningless % of giveaway. How much of that money goes to help the poor and how much goes to fund the lavish lifestyles of politicians in those countries? I’d guess the ratio is close to 0% to the poor. Cut it all off, now, permanently.
“How much of that money goes to help the poor and how much goes to fund the lavish lifestyles of politicians in those countries? I’d guess the ratio is close to 0% to the poor. Cut it all off, now, permanently.”
These caravans are a win-win for the corrupt leadership of the countries; they get to unload their poor and protect their power all while gobbling up aid to fund themselves. I’m with you. Cut all the aid. Not sure why we’re sending aid to these places even without the immigration problems; it’s clearly not doing any good.
That “aid” was payment for not acting against American interests. Since they didn’t abide by the unspoken terms, no more payola.
How much of that money goes to help the poor and how much goes to fund the lavish lifestyles of politicians in those countries? I’d guess the ratio is close to 0% to the poor.
Which is exactly why cutting it might be effective, and not inhumane.
I still like Kinky Friedman’s plan: give every Mexican general and/or governor in their border states a million dollar annual allowance. For every illegal we catch in their sector, we deduct X dollars.
But look how much these people love the U.S. and want to be here.
These people are on Trump’s reelection campaign right?
Damn fuckin’ straight.
These articles are very interesting to me, Gadianton. Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out for we heathen.
The Church is clear in the doctrine that we also have a Heavenly Mother, and that He and She work as a team.
You know damn well she’s constantly harping at him.
Thanks. As long as there’s interest, I’ll keep putting them together.
LOL
VURCHUALLY NON-XISTUNT
https://townhall.com/columnists/scottmorefield/2018/10/22/president-trump-takes-aim-at-voter-fraud-liberals-go-berserk-n2530657
The party that cries wolf.
I have years of fraud investigations experience in the private sector. From my experience if you’re not looking for it, or proactively stopping it, then there is a good chance it’s happening. I’d bet the same philosophy could be applied to voter fraud.
There’s a video running in our election here showing the Dem candidate for Secretary of State talking about how important it is that they win the SecState race so they can turn Arizona blue, or something like that. Can’t seem to find it on a quick search, but it was kind of chilling.
Teams other than blue might as well not exist here: I haven’t seen a single ad that wasn’t for a Democrat.
What really matters in an election is who counts the votes.
“It’s not the people who vote that count. It’s the people who count the votes.”
– Uncle Joe (not Biden)
This is a good read,
http://thedailychrenk.com/2018/10/22/dear-resistance-listen-lived-totalitarian-experience-no-effing-idea-youre-talking/
Thanks, Gadiation. That’s a good intro to set the stage.
Good article, Gadianton.
I submit that Lucifer is a job title. If there is no Lucifer, there is no choice between good and evil. An adversary is necessary.
So do we conclude that God knew what Lucifer would propose, that he would pitch a fit, and work to destroy God’s children, so God built the plan around him or did he call Lucifer to be the opposition?
Nah. It was the rock n’ roll what done it.
AFAIK Cain only used a rock
*narrows gaze*
Yall consider Job to be part of your faith right?
Yes. In fact, there was a lively discussion about a month ago (featuring yours truly) about whether Job was literal or symbolic. I said symbolic because I don’t like to think God’s that big of a dick. I didn’t say “dick.”
Yeah, but you thought it.
God knows, Mo.
He rolls his eyes at me a lot.
I get the raised eyebrow and a slow head shake. It’s disconcerting.
It’s better than a narrowed gaze.
*glares balefully*
Mojeaux in heaven, they say.
I don’t think there is anything in Job that we don’t see on a regular basis.
That doesn’t answer the question of symbolic or literal, but it shoots down your argument.
My argument that God isn’t a dick?
Your argument that Job is symbolic because God isn’t a dick.
Fair point.
So do we conclude that God knew what Lucifer would propose, that he would pitch a fit, and work to destroy God’s children, so God built the plan around him or did he call Lucifer to be the opposition?
I find it interesting that the LDS conception of the afterlife (for lack of a better term) has God(s) being subject to the passage of time. Granted, I don’t think that this is peculiar to LDS (*glares at Calvin*), but I think that it causes issues with calling God the ultimate good.
Cutting a whole bunch of literature down to a single question… If God changes, which God is the ultimate good, old God or new God?
If we believe we can become gods, then ours had to come from some other realm with his own deity. I can accept that perhaps our god, the one we worship with a capital G, is a god in training.
We say God made us in our image, but in reality WE make God in OUR image. So we parallel the parent experience (“Heavenly Father”). Except what we don’t do is credit the parent with making mistakes because we must believe God is perfect or it all falls apart. But I can entertain the idea he’s learning and makes mistakes.
f God changes, which God is the ultimate good, old God or new God?
Couldn’t it be both and context dependent?
A strong immutability believer like me would say that God doesn’t change. Only the context does.
Some light reading on the topic
In essence, if God is superlatively good… perfect, no change should be necessary. To change to fit a context is to improve. God, as He was, was incapable of being the greatest good in a new context which makes Him less than the superlative good. Improvement means imperfection.
I’m reading Stephenson’s “Quicksilver” and finished recently the bit where Daniel Waterhouse and Liebnitz are discussing predestination versus free will with and how it relates to God’s omniscience. When I was a believe I tend to rationalize toward the former.
There is a thin line between predestination and knowing your creations so well you can predict what they’re going to do in any given circumstance.
Yeah. I figured it was free will + God level intelligence and knowledge means you can predict exactly what your creations will do. I can predict my wife’s behavior about 98% of the time, and my g/f’s about 85-90%. I figure if I can do that, God can bat 1000.
Also, a lack of free will seemed hard to square with eternal punishment. I mean, it would take a sick jerk to setup a system where you know the overwhelming majority can’t meet the standard and are going to burn eternally simply so you can get a relative handful who will tell you how great you are for all eternity.
I am God (part 1)
I am God (part 2)
Fascinating. I enjoyed both those reads.
Thank you!
The punishment as is long as you deny God and feel no remorse for your bad actions. You never shape up, it never ends.
Kind of like Charles Manson in prison. Feel proud of your crimes, no remorse and say you will do it again… no parole.
There is a thin line between predestination and knowing your creations so well you can predict what they’re going to do in any given circumstance.
The third option is an atemporal God. God “simultaneously” exists in all times at once. He knows your choices because they are past, present, and future to him (to the extent such concepts exist outside of time itself) all at once.
I don’t think the two are contradictory. I like light as a wave/particle as an analogy.
I need to get cracking on that book.
I adore it. It’s the 3rd time I’ve read the entire cycle and I always find new things when reading it. It’d also be fun to have conversations about who/what Enoch Root actually is.
Should I read Cryptonomicon again first?
Yes. And also after.
There are some references he makes in Baroque that are only amusing having read Cryptonomicon. And even more amusing reading Cryptonomicon again later.
Will do, thanks.
I’m reading his works in my assumed chronological order at this point: Baroque Cycle -> Cryptonomicon -> Snow Crash -> Diamond Age. But I am remembering lots of the Cryptonomicon references. (For example early on in the first chapter there’s a Bolstrood throwaway line that is the first hint other than Enoch being the initial narrator that there are deep ties to the two books)
The one that always gets me is the Samurai swords in the trunk of the Shaftoe cousins’ car.
It is entirely a throwaway description in Cryptonomicon but a big deal after you read Baroque Cycle.
+1 “Redneck Ronin”
Enoch father of Methuselah is my guess.
I’m in the angel camp myself thanks to the afore-referenced Waterhouse-Leibnitz discussion. Maybe.
I also like the idea that Enoch isn’t an angel, but he’s akin to one of the folks from Ananthem that could transit realities.
Given Lucifers eventual disposition, I prefer the former to the latter. As you say below, I’d like to think that the God I worship isn’t a jerk.
Except we were told explicitly what we were getting ourselves into, so is that a warning, a challenge, or an invitation to be tested and aggrieved throughout our mortality? Or, like children, could we simply not comprehend exactly what that meant?
To your first question, I’d say all of the above. He knew what was coming, so He told us. Each of us took it as one of the above based on our own personality. As to the second, I suspect that we were (spiritually speaking) in our 20s — technically adult, but no real life experience to judge what had been explained to us. We had reached a stage where we couldn’t progress without entering mortality, so God gave us the information we needed to make the decision of whether to follow him or Lucifer. I suspect that how much thought we gave it varied as much between individuals as such things do here.
And I get to pimp Gaiman again… Murder Mysteries is a short story that dances around that premise.
And semi-related, have any of the LDS here read Job: A Comedy of Justice? I’d be curious on your takes on it.
It’s been 30+ years. I remember being amused by the role-switching between the devil and Jesus.
One thing that’s always bothered me about most religions I’ve studied is Lucifer/The Devil, not so much the persona, but the contradiction it presents. Most religions say one of the gifts God gave man is free will. This would imply that Angels do/did not have free will. Which would mean Lucifer was only doing what God demanded. And for the religions that don’t push the free will angle, there is still the omniscience of God, even if Lucifer did have free will, God already knew how every scenario would play out and seems to have chosen a plan which he would know would make Lucifer rebel.
Yes. That is why I think Lucifer is a job title. Since, according to our doctrine, we all agreed to try out this here free will thing and were told how it would go, it’s fair.
What was not was giving Adam and Eve two competing commandments: don’t eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil AND multiply and replenish the earth (which they couldn’t do while living in innocence). So Eve made the choice to have knowledge and multiply.
However, take what I say with a grain of salt because I have unorthodox ways of looking at things, and Gadianton has a better handle on teaching it.
Go forth and Multiply is God’s command to Noah and his sons. It comes after the expulsion from Eden, in a world in which mankind has already broken that command, and does not contradict the command not to eat of the fruit.
No, it’s for Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28
Most religions say one of the gifts God gave man is free will. This would imply that Angels do/did not have free will.
I’m not sure that follows. I’m no doctrinal expert, but do they say God gave free will only to man?
well, I’m assuming everything living thing has it, but I’ve only ever heard or read about God giving it to man. But Angels on the other hand seems to change based on each priest/pastor. Not sure what the heads of any church have declared.
I have read novels in which angels are treated as having no free will, but the revolt of Lucifer and his followers is generally taken in theological studies to show that the angels did/do have free will.
Are you Piers Anthony?
I was hired to convert some of his books into ebooks way back in the day, but have never read him nor am I him in drag.
I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m kind of disappointed.
-1 Cabaret Dress for Chameleon
I am glad you haven’t read him. You might have been insulted.
Sort of, but he made lots of money and I don’t, so at some point, quality ceases to matter.
Meme
Gadianton, thanks for these.
I like the notion of God (and Mrs God) as parents equipping their children to be be like them.
I remember asking my LDS grandfather why the emphasis on striving ( I forget the actual term I used). He said that God had given each of us our own intelligence and talents and we were obligated to develope them as best we could. To not do so would be to disrespect God’s gifts. I found this was better than the “Do Right or Burninhell!” That I’d gotten from other religions
How many Mrs. Gods are there? Did he give up all but one in 1904?
We don’t know. It’s a source of some consternation for some of us XX types. As for the XYs I know, none of them want more than one wife.
Love all you guys, but I’d rather sit on a park bench and paddle my nuts with a wooden spoon than talk about religion.
I don’t give a shit because I don’t think anyone can prove anything one way or the other. BUT everyone who wants to talk about this shit tries to force a guy to choose some side. Even the fucking atheists have too much belief (in nothing) for my taste.
I am utterly unable to work up any interest in any of this. Someday I’ll die and that will be it.
That’s some Papal decree. How many lashings for breaking that commandment?
I assume it’s 69 spankings
Well, if you do want to talk about it, there’s no better place than here. One of the few places I’ve seen where you can openly discuss religion, no matter which perspective you are coming from, and not have everyone mad.
I’m not religious, but I still find it quite an interesting, indeed fascinating topic, which is very worthy of discussion. Even your decision to not talk about it is interesting.
Like hell it is!
*waits for Tundra to drop gloves*
Nah, he’s right.
It’s sort of a big part of the ultimate questions series topic.
Where did we come from? Why does anything even exist at all? It’s hard to even approach that topic without religion coming in. I’ve been pondering this stuff since I can remember pondering. Doesn’t everyone do that? Maybe not. Could just be us crazy people. I’ve come up with all sorts of scenarios to explain all this, probably zero percent of them even close to being correct. But I bet they’re just as good as anyone else’s guesses.
Doesn’t everyone do that?
Not me, really.
I do.
You’re not alone, unless you are and solipsism is the right answer, but if that’s correct, then how can you prove it?
It could be that God is the only one who really exists, and all the rest of us our NPCs. He’s just taking turns playing as each of us.
Obligatory
Who is the Luther of deep dish, and how shall we torture him before we execute him ?
SINNER REPENT
needs moar Tolstoy!
Well, I am so glad you could drop in, release that rhetorical fart and walk back out.
I know at least a few of you would.
https://nypost.com/2018/10/22/nypd-boss-accused-to-stuffing-her-panties-in-co-workers-mouth/
Wow, I love it when a name suits a job.
“I left my undies all over the place and they still wouldn’t pay attention to me! Then I spied on them and found out they all have small dicks anyway!.”
U mad, girl?
So was he just sitting there with his mouth wide open? Or did she overpower him and force it into his mouth?
Right? So odd.
It sounds to me like she’s crazy and no one much goes near her because of that. Then she’s mad that all her co-workers don’t want to stick it in crazy.
I think that however it happened, by the new woke rules, that’s sexual assault. She is a cop though, so nothing else happens until she goes all postal on them.
that’s
sexualassault“Ignore rape”.
Now Florida Man enters the conversation…
Yeah, I kind of need to know right now.
*checks pic*
20 year old her and I’d be game.
MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS SUPPORTS ‘MEDICARE FOR ALL,’ POLL FINDS
Another misleading poll. Change Medicare for all to Single Player and those numbers will drop. Include the cost and they will drop even more.
+1 ‘Keep the government’s hands off my medicare’ tea party chant
I think it’s coming and it’s gonna be bad. Like always there will be no way to go back, instead both parties will fight each other over how to “fix” it.
Next time Dems hold Congress and the Presidency, it will be interesting indeed to see if they want to stick their dicks back in the healthcare blender, seeing as it cost them very much indeed the last time they did it.
They’ll do it. They can’t help taking an opportunity to gain so much power over the populace. They also know that growing the government ultimately helps them in the long game, even if they suffer short term losses.
I just wonder how many Dem officeholders are actually willing to take one for the team and lose their position by voting for something. If they had believed back in ’09 that so many of them would be ousted, I doubt OCare would have passed. But, the Senate did have the special election MA as a clear warning shot, and they went ahead and passed OCare anyway, so who knows?
If the Dems get power again, I mean like in all 3 braches, Q is right. They will pass every economy killing stupid piece of legislation they can. The hard left is in complete control of the party and they will vote in lock step or be driven out anyway. They’ll give us enormous tax burdens to fund legislation that is doomed from the start and open borders with guaranteed voting rights for everyone who walks in. You can figure out what happens then.
We all get our unicorns that shit fiat money?
He fixes the cable?
“We all get our unicorns that shit fiat money?”
We all get a pony. Of course, we must build and maintain properly built and government approved living quarters for the pony. The pony permit is $10,000 a year and the pony tax is an additional 40% of whatever is left of your non-taxed income. But you have a pony, it was a gift, now shut up and pay your fair share.
kinder, gentler Nancy
Oh come on, they were interviewing some aspiring young socialists on college campuses and several of them said they’d be willing to pay like $100 a month for ‘free’ healthcare. You right wingers just want people to die!
I’m not very religious, but I enjoy reading your articles Gadianton.
Carl Bernstein: Trump preparing to call midterm elections ‘illegitimate’ if Democrats take power
This sounds familiar… Can’t remember where I’ve seen this before?
The only way they ‘take power’ is to win both the house and the senate, impeach Trump and remove him from office. If they only take the house, that just gives them 2 years of gridlock where they 24/7 beclown themselves trying to impeach Trump and Kavanaugh. It will not be pretty or gain them anything in 2020.
He’ll probably come up with some convoluted narrative about foreign interference, am I right. The guy is WACKO! The sooner Mueller proves the Russians stole the election for him the better.
Sure, Carl. Ironclad sourcing.
C’mon man, you can get a blow job a lot cheaper than that!
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/north-carolina-restaurant-server-given-10000-cash-tip-by-patron-who-ordered-water
Hmm…since he has a YouTube channel and his crew recorded this, can he deduct the tip as an expense? No tip, no video.
Pre-Adpocalypse he’d probably have made the money back on the video, nowadays he might come up short, but advertising.
Just the tip.
I need to bounce out, and do some of what they pay me to do. Thanks, as always, for the comments and questions.
Thanks for another interesting article!
The surgery that dare not speak its name.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-new-taboo-more-people-regret-sex-change-and-want-to-detransition-surgeon-says
So, the price for your new social status was too high? And I bet you want the rest of us to pay for it. Shut up and pay your fair share!
“once it’s gone,
You, can’t, put it Back,
Out of the Bl…… bla bla,”
People are going to regret voting for socialism even more. But that didn’t stop them from being suckered. Unfortunately, the only detransition from socialism is mass starvation and economic collapse. Then the detransition doesn’t transition to what you wanted.
Or, once your own country’s collapse is complete, you just caravan to a non-socialist country that still has money.
Until we run out of those. And running out of the USA’s vast wealth giving away money to other countries and providing military for them, you’ve pretty much ran out of those. Then you have China. And China is not exactly well known for their kindness or love of freedom.
Oh shit.
https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2018/10/22/exploding-toilets-prompts-recall-of-1-4-million-flushmate-flushing-systems/
Oh, spontaneous explosions of human filth in Philadelphia? Talk about a dog bites man story.
I could get on board with this.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/travel/travel-news/737927/marisa-papen-playboy-model-hagia-sophia-mosque-istanbul-turkey-naked-travel-photos
Wow…and a face plant for a bonus
OT: Derpbook share from my proggy friend (a full on MD, lectures internationally in his specialty)…
The worst part is, the man seriously believes this shit.
I’m low on the economic totem pole and just looked at my W-2. Deductions for health insurance plus what the employer claims its portion is would only come to 18% of my gross.
The employer based thing definitely is too.
Huh, just checked the numbers. I’m having ~2.5% of my pre-tax dollars deducted for health insurance (and savings). Now mind you, I’m a single guy with only myself on my health insurance (no kids or spouse). However, my taxes are taking ~25% of my pre-tax dollars. So allow me to call Bull Shit.
At least the moron started to link communism with fascism (albeit most likely unintentionally).
Yeah. I’m at 3% for my health insurance (pre tax).
Now, if he’s including the empoyer’s side of the payment, then to compare apples to apples, we would need to include that same information for all of the “employer” paid taxes. I don’t think he’ll win on that comparison either.
So, the person just basically lies for a living? Because surely a MD cannot be that stupid. Those numbers are not even close. I just calculated my deduction for medical. It’s less than 5%. In European countries, people pay 40-50% of their income for their ‘free’ shit, while the avg person earning the same in the US pays about 20%. Then you have the extreme high price of consumer goods in Europe because of VAT taxes.
Just say no to these assholes.
“The worst part is, the man seriously believes this shit.”
Doesn’t have internet? Unable to use search engine? Never been to or know anyone outside of the US?
Sadly, he has and uses the internet. As I mentioned, he travels internationally to lecture on his area of medical expertise. He did respond to my comment (I unequivocally stated that the original poster was bad at math). Claims that removing hospital administration will drop costs by orders of magnitude. I couldn’t resist asking if the VA was that efficient.
He will claim socialized medicine will lower costs and point to the fact that health care costs are cheaper in Western Europe. Been down this road many many times.
It will lower costs
because they will lower quantity and quality.
It will still increase costs because of the massive tax burden. But they’ll hide that, so then it will look like costs have decreased when in effect, they have increased.
of course
which will lower quantity and quality further
I imagine we’re in violent agreement: when Europe comes clean on their accounting, healthcare costs much more than any 5% deduction. By a similar accounting, US healthcare is 18%.
What the proles in both the US and the EU have in common is that they have not grasp of this.
I couldn’t argue with anyone who noted that the last half of American healthcare spending does almost nothing to improve outcomes, extend longevity or quality of life. It offers the odd opportunity at a chance of those things for a crazy price….which is what America is all about if you want it to be.
It’s a lie. And it would be widely known as a lie around here, if not for our dishonest media. CNN, the NYT and other leftist media outlets have been spreading this lie for years now. They know the numbers are not accurate, but all that matters to them is the narrative. It’s probably the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the American public, with AGW being a close second. Both of them will rape you bankrupt when they get their agenda through. But you are not important, now behave like good Euro peasants and bend over.
I was on another site last week where a prog posted proof of how bad Trump is. One of his proofs was that Trump says the media is the enemy of the American people. I countered with ‘Why is pointing out the truth, bad? Sure, the media is good if they are telling you what you want to hear, despite the honesty of it, maybe that is good to you. But when they constantly lie because of a leftist agenda and you don’t like that, they are not your friend’.
He will then post a link to Vox that says you’re wrong. You will then have to post your own research, which will be called partisan.
Like I said, many many times.
Ask him for proof of a country that gives out universal healthcare for only 5% of your income. Someone is using some very manipulative numbers here.
It’s like when they say that healthcare is cheaper in every other modern country other than the USA. They do not include the enormous amount of taxes confiscated to provide it. Fail. Neither do they figure in the rationing, whereby I can control the costs by deciding who can actually have treatment and when. Dishonest people. Fail.
The man’s an idiot outside of his specialty.
I won’t say there isn’t a single person who spends 20% of their pay on health insurance, but its a vanishingly small number.
Even taking him figuratively with the “orders of magnitude”, I wonder what he means by “hospital administration”, and how he imagines a hospital would function without management. Worker collectives, perhaps?
It’s 18% of the economy any way you slice it, so it’s 18% of income for someone (something even Krugmann would understand!).
It’s on a line somewhere: reduced salary so your employer can pay for it, direct deduction, taxes and debt so that others get theirs through the government. Some pay more, some pay less, whatever: 18% of the American life.
Good news, folks, from our friendly democrats.
WE GOTS ALL YO MONEY!
There’s now almost no limit to how much of your money democrats have to give away, as they constantly try to outbid the others over your stuff.