A while ago I wrote about the issues of pragmatism in politics. Planning the second part, I ran into a serious dilemma: I could not find the proper alliterative title. I thought of words starting with p to indicate this is a second part of a previous post, but I found none. Redux does not really work but r is sort of like p…
But enough of my personal failings. Let us once more grab pragmatism by the balls… My first post was not a critique of the concept of pragmatism in itself – this can be a different story – but what I called pseudo-pragmatism. This is basically completely ignoring principles and the multitude of problems with many politicians in the name of so called pragmatism, leading descending spiral of corruption and incompetence which is not in any way “pragmatic.”
This led me to think, get the old rusty cogs turning among the cobwebs. Where is the place of pragmatism in libertarianism? Can we find it some room of its own? The answer to this depends on who you ask. Because, otherwise, libertarianism would be thoroughly boring.
I thought about expanding on the issue by analyzing pragmatism and ideology, not pragmatism and every day politics. Because I believe that an ideology which is not at least somewhat rooted in reality is mostly pointless, and basically not that better than utopian communism. It is quite easy – as the corpus of fantasy literature shows – to imagine all sorts of things and put them in words. Something that will actually work in our world – and not Middle Earth – is more difficult.
Now, given there are 10 different opinions for every 9 libertarians, I assume few will agree to what exactly constitutes pragmatism in ideology. But, as many of our little talks around this place are in agreement, let’s get controversial.
The main issue is: to what point can you bend a principle in service of being pragmatic, before it ceases to be a principle? Some would say not at all, slippery slope and such. Others would try to define some minimal leeway in it. Another way of viewing things is: can we design the principles to be pragmatic? My island experiment post was an attempt to start from some basic premise and define some principles, while keeping an eye on reality.
So let us dive in the deep end… I see two types of political discussion. One idealistic, how we would like things to be in perfect universe (cough anarchism) and another what is a good enough ideology for the world we live in – presently, not 500 years from now or in some post scarcity utopia and/or dystopia. My answer is along the lines of minarchism plus, a form of limited government, free(ish) markets and personal liberty, enabling for each a life as close to what they want as can be.
Now, I am all for talking anarchism for the sake of an interesting debate, but after a point, we need to get back on Earth Earth and see what has a chance in hell of working. What is not impossible, but merely highly improbable? Anarchy? Yeah… no. Minarchy? Probably not true minarchy. Reasonably limited government? Well that is a very long shot maybe. Which, in the end, we might never live to see, but I am saying there is a chance.
To clarify, by working, I mean something that allows the individual to live and thrive. Feudalism was stable for many years, but I would not say it worked. Certainly not for the serf. One out of 100 people in a harem may think it is working. Somewhat anarchic Zomia worked a while, only if working means hunting, gathering, swidden agriculture and almost no capital accumulation.
While this may or may not be possible, I am trying, against the modern trend, to find principles as objective as possible, otherwise it becomes a quagmire of subjectivism and feels. So I am trying to think of some basic guideline of organizing a political entity. This is not necessarily fully libertarian, but something that maybe can appeal to a slightly broader demographic.
We can dismiss out of hand ideas that would work if humans were different. Humans have a certain nature, respond to incentives and are not some sort of altruistic angels. Teach murderers not to murder is not a viable idea, certainly not pragmatic in any sense of the word. Due to the problems associated with putting humans and power in the same room, I will say outright that no ideology without some clear limits on state power can function.
As I believe that, quite objectively, humans are unique individuals, I believe any system needs to focus on individual human rights, not collective ones. A system must not sacrifice individuals – which are obviously a real entity, you can touch them if you want, as long as the sign the consent form – for the sage of a vaguely defined society – which may have a function as an abstract concept but does not really exist. Neither tyranny of minority or majority must rule.
A functioning country must have some level of stability. A revolution every two years is not sustainable. At the same time there must be a way to change whatever “leaders” there are. Whoever is in a position to wield tools of coercion – police, justice, taxation, regulation, whatever – needs to be held accountable and have some skin in the game. History shows that when leaders can act with impunity, nothing good happens.
So is socialism right out? Socialism was always right out. I never got the whole socialism would work if humans were better. If humans were better, it would still not work and anyway there would be no need of it. There is no situation where socialism is needed or desired. We can dismiss democratic socialism. It is lipstick on a pig, trying to add the veneer of legitimacy by the democratic part.
Any form of dictatorship or monarchy should be excluded – this can rarely exist with accountability. A monarchy can be ceremonial at best. Any form of democracy must not lead to mob rule and must be restricted by the fundamental rights of the individual, as history can show us how people were often mistreated by bad laws that had the support of the majority. Excessive centralization is not desirable. This reduces accountability and skin in the game. It concentrates power and it makes corruption easier. It makes the coercive institutions distant for the individual.
Economically, for better or worse, say what you will of the tenets of small government decentralized republics, it worked some. Yes, there was graft and government imposed monopoly and protectionism, but keeping government somewhat limited meant these could not mess things up to much. And when the state grew too much, there were always problems, even in the Swedish paradise.
Socially, the main problems were brought by putting the so called collective over the individual. There are no clear models in history for ways of organizing that did not do this. Monarchies, republics, dictatorships, theocracies, capitalism, socialism they all wronged people. The solution is simply extending laissez faire economics of small government to the non-economic issues. I do not believe in social and economic division of freedom. They are either both or neither.
Now what are my principles? Well I believe rights are individual and that peoplekind [hupersons?] are social beasts. As such, living together, various conflicts appear. The core role of government is solving or mediating these conflicts in a fashion which best preserves said rights. There is an individual sphere – what is inside is none of societies damn business – and a common sphere – which is basically interaction of individuals, and the main issue with many forms of government is bringing into the common things that are individual. To take a small example, there can be a case for common involvement in health when it comes to contagious diseases e.g. quarantines, but not when it comes to broken legs.
Believing in non-anarchy, I believe there is some taxation needed and this, in my view, is where I bend the principle some libertarians hold of taxation is theft / extortion / whatever. So to get to the actual point, basically the single land tax is a good idea, is where I am getting at.
Anyway I think this topic can go on and on and as such I want to take it to the comments section… So how do you like your principles, fellow glibs? Medium rare or blue? Not cooked at all? Discuss …
People would not like my solutions.
tough but fair?
I liked most of Robert Heinlein’s solutions.
I didn’t.
I’d be curious to see what would come out of a government body that functioned like Bernardo de la Paz suggested in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress:
Of course, the same character wanted the government to not even have the power to tax…
One third of current representatives would eagerly vote to repeal most of the constitution.
The power to repeal laws, not change the constitution. The method of amendment was not specified, as it was an aside by a character, who had previously said to accentuate the negative in the constitution, to better deprive the government of powers (he was an anarchist).
Well, maybe not repeal. Amend, perhaps:
That isn’t a law.
It is. It isn’t statute or legislation, but it is Law.
All laws should have to be approved by a Board of Dunces (something I saw in a story once), who are all non-lawyers charged with making sure the law is clear and understandable to the people to whom it applies.
In such a circumstance, they should be given the text of the law, and no other information.
Yes. Case law is bullshit.
There was a proposal at the Constitutional Convention to require some kind of super-majority to pass legislation. Jefferson also suggested a sunset clause on every piece of legislation passed by the federal government.
sunset clause
*fist pump* yes!
This would be the best way to clear up a lot of problems. Every law, every regulation, ever tax expires.
I raise your sunset clause with an omnibus reauthorization bill.
“The Dunce council can’t figure out what the law is actually saying”
Yeah, the fact that they keep reauthorizing the Patriot Act, tells me this might need be the silver bullet we hope it would be…
I dunno – it seems like the laws with overwhelming by-partisan support are usually the worst ones.
Yes, but you as a dictator would just give you the power to force the rest of us to move our desire for flavorful food and delicious beer underground.
Is it a final solution?
I wouldn’t dismiss monarchy with such haste. At least not a form of Constitutional monarchy where the King or Queen is around to keep the mob from getting out of control.
Dictatorship in the Roman Republic made excellent sense as a response to emergencies. For a 6-month term, a highly respected individual was given almost absolute power because they recognized that normal pace of government decision making was too slow in those situations and could lose a war with an enemy at their gates.
I do not trust anyone else with that amount of power.
Not Cincinnatus or George Washington?
Our federal Republic no longer functions properly because of the people, not the institutions.
You can never be sure to have good TOP MEN.
Cincinnatus was the exception…
No he wasn’t. He was a product of his time and society. If he had betrayed and tried to make himself king, Roman citizens would have killed him.
Four centuries later, the Roman Middle Class was almost gone (in large part due to massive import of
illegal aliensslaves from their various conquests). Roman society was producing power-hungry monsters like Pompey, Crassus, and Caesar instead of patriots. The Constitution and ancient customers were being ignored – and most importantly – Roman citizens weren’t chasing these people from the streets and hanging them.While I agree with you about the difference in respect to the mos maiorum between the early and late Republic, there really was no such thing as a Roman “middle class”, which is a modern concept that ill-fits the Classical world, much less the Gibbon-esque claim that slavery was responsible for its decline. As a pre-industrial society, the percentage of Romans involved in commerce was almost negligible. It is estimated that 80 to 90 percent of Romans worked in agriculture; and as you know, Roman citizen-farmers worked hand-in-hand with their slaves in the field. What Roman slavery accomplished was freeing citizens for conscription into the military to further conquest.
Roman yeoman farmers and skilled artisans were middle-class in the early period. After numerous successful campaigns across the Mediterranean, Italy was flooded with slaves.
The rich bought up the farmland and used slaves to farm it. Meanwhile the average military deployment went from campaigns in Italy during the summer months before harvest – to multi-year assignments in Greece or North Africa. So those small farmers had to sell out due to their absence. They ended up the lower class masses in Rome itself.
monsters like Pompey, Crassus, and Caesar instead of patriots.
Crassus and Pompey, monsters? No doubt. Caesar? I don’t know. Everything I’ve read suggests he was kind of put in a position of take power or get killed.
he was not put he put himself…
He became the 2nd richest man in the world by selling half a million Gauls into slavery.
And now you know how much gaul it takes to declare yourself Emperor.
It would take an August personage to actually pull that off. Julius was not such a man.
He became the 2nd richest man in the world by selling half a million Gauls into slavery.
Which was hardly unusual at the time, in terms of principles. Caesar only differed from the rest in his effectiveness at capturing people to put into slavery.
Who hasn’t wanted to do some dictatoring in their salad days?
How often people forget that George had a rebellion against him as well. I do give him credit for stepping down after two terms.
Nobody cares about a bunch of drunken yinzers stirring up trouble.
I’d argue that the size of the Republic at that time had a lot to do with the effectiveness of the dictatorship as a solution, as did the limits imposed on logistics and communication in the ancient world.
well the Roman Republic fell after a while. I see o purpose in monarchy and the US did fairly well without it
It fell because the 50 BC Romans were very different from the 450 BC Romans.
so a system that only works for 450 BC Romans.
Only works if the people believe in it, support it, and obey the rules. As soon as the rules go out the window, collapse is imminent. Republic, monarchy, whatever – as soon as people can break the rules without punishment, it’s going to fall apart.
We know it instinctively and sense it ever day.
The 450 BC Romans were still able to remember Tarquin the Proud. Historical cycles repeat. If you get liberty you get prosperity, with prosperity comes complacency, complacency leads to apathy, apathy allows the rise of tyranny, tyranny eventually chokes off prosperity and spurs rebellion, rebellion leads either to a new tyranny (which gets you what has turned Argentina from the main US economic rival in the west ca. 1930 into the mess it is today) or to liberty. The step in the cycle most likely to be skipped is the liberty step, which is why much as I hate the state of our political world I really pray we can avoid another civil war.
“King or Queen is around to keep the mob from getting out of control.”
I don’t get this point. QEII has no executive, legislative or military power to do this in the U.K. The monarchy seems to exists there as a tourist attraction and a way to keep Brits interested in their history as an exceptional island on the fringe of Europe.
I wonder what would happen if the Queen refused royal assent on legislation. Technically she has the authority to say no, but it hasn’t been exercised in so long it’s regarded as a formality.
Perfidious Albion
While she doesn’t use them very often, and generally only to troll people (like the time she took a Saudi prince for a ride in a sports car while gleefully informing him that she didn’t have a license as she broke every traffic law in the kingdom, nearly killing him from shock), Elizabeth actually retains significant executive and military power. Whether she would actually be allowed to exercise those powers is another story, but by law she could order the military to shutter parliament and proceed to rule with an iron fist.
It used to be about legitimacy. The king/queen is one person, but the office is a source of stability and political gravitas. That provides structure and some protection against a total free-for-all in the streets as everyone competes physically to exert their will. If you overthrow the king by force just because you want to, what’s to stop the same from happening to you? So you trade some authority to the sovereign in exchange for not having to sleep with one eye open.
Now, I think it’s more of a national pride thing. Maybe there’s some aspect where the royal family offer moral support and act as some sort of good examples for the rest of the nation or something like that, but I think they’re mostly just well-to-do mascots these days.
“to what point can you bend a principle in service of being pragmatic, before it ceases to be a principle?”
Politics is the art of the possible and fusing principles into that is the constant challenge. I think the proper way to do it is through incrementalism. This is something the Left has been very good at; never take your eyes off the big prize, but make small, calculated moves toward that ultimate goal. Keep turning that one-way ratchet. When it comes to libertarianism, I would hope that the positive results from small reforms (especially economically) would embolden both politicians and voters to keep moving in that direction.
The converse is demanding complete purity and immediate adoption of the ultimate goal, and I think this rarely works out. Case in point: Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (who pride themselves on being the “NO COMPROMISE” gun rights org in the state) have been advocating for Constitutional Carry for a long time. A couple of years ago, they finally got enough legislators on board to pass it; with the caveat that carrying would still be illegal in State government buildings (courts, county offices, etc.). RMGO, being the ideological purists that they are, rejected this; no compromise! all or nothing! So they got nothing, and we still don’t have Constitutional Carry. While adhering to principles is admirable, only a moron lets the perfect be the enemy of the good in such a situation. It’s also when I dropped my membership. Take the win and move on to advocating for the rest of your agenda afterward.
Argh, yeah, that’s a really good point, and gun rights are a big place where it needs to be learned. Steps are a real thing and they work well, literally and metaphorically. Some people will accept nothing less than immediate teleportation to the next floor; this has a low rate of success, and over the long haul never really works. What the Progressives learned and put into practice the best of all American political movements is that if you take ten percent of what you ask for you can point to that ten percent as evidence that you should have another ten percent. People will acclimate to subtle changes very quickly, and they’ll rapidly accept the new conditions as the status quo. Next thing you know, you’ve got what you wanted and, best of all, everyone thinks that’s the way it’s supposed to be; that’s the new normal.
gun rights are a big place where it needs to be learned
They should be the textbook example of how incrementalism can work to increase liberty. Sure, requiring a license to carry concealed is an imposition on liberty and likely unconstitutional, but it was all that could be done 15-20 years ago. Now, lo and behold, we have legal concealed carry, state-by-state reciprocity, and a small trend to Constitutional carry. If we had opposed anything but the immediate repeal of all gun control laws, we would have less liberty than we do now.
Medpot may also be a place where incrementalism has worked. Again, it was all that was possible when it started, and now we have not just widespread medpot, but legalized funpot in a few places (albeit heavily crony-regulated). I think we’re better off, even if we aren’t as well off as I’d like us to be.
“I think we’re better off, even if we aren’t as well off as I’d like us to be”
And there’s the rub: there’s absolutely no reason we have to stop. We can be satisfied with the progress, but still push for more reforms. We’re at a point in which I think it’s possible, even probable, that there will be complete legalization of marijuana at the Federal level; something that wouldn’t have been possible without state-level legalization, which wouldn’t have been possible without medical legalization etc. Big changes can happen in small steps.
You are right about the progs being really good at that pragmatic approach. Whereas I saw something once that I think is true; “Any time 2 or 3 libertarians get together, they all declare themselves libertarian pope and excommunicate the rest for not being ideologically pure enough” . One of the things I like about this place is we don’t really do that.
Were I libertarian, I’d accuse you of heresy and excommunicate you.
Yeah, that seems to be a trend in libertarianism. I don’t know why, but I suspect it’s not uncommon in a lot of strongly ideological political communities.
Yeah, its not just us. The anarcho-sindicalists-Lenninist get along with the post-ironic-beardcore-Maouist-communitarians as well as the anarcho-capitolists-bubclaivers get along with the blood-and-soil-sea-steading-voluntarists.
Except for Pope Jimbo.
The One True Pope.
My cynical answer is that in our own way libertarians are political hipsters. We tend to be much happier sneering from outside the political melee than fixing systems by jumping in and getting our hands dirty. Oddly many of us are quite helpful and hard working in our private lives, but our distaste for political action leaves us hopeless at pushing an agenda.
Case in point: Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (who pride themselves on being the “NO COMPROMISE” gun rights org in the state) have been advocating for Constitutional Carry for a long time.
They done fucked up. A No Compromise stance on gun rights is definitely to be applauded and encouraged, but only to further infringements on gun rights. Incrementalism, along with a pro 2A Supreme Court, are the keys to success.
I mention my own state’s 2A group occasionally here because they do this very well. No compromise on anti gun legislation, but push through anything possible on positive front. They’ve been very successful with constitutional carry and preemption among the big wins for this formerly purple, now red, state.
They did compromise once when the state AG revoked acceptance of all out of state CC licenses (~18 months ago?). There was a grand compromise where these were restored, along with some new gains, in return for the state sending a trooper to every gun show to run voluntary background checks for private sellers. It could be argued that this is incrementalism towards making such checks mandatory, but it also exposed the ridiculousness of them when only one or two private sellers, if any, ran a check each show.
Looks like I done fucked up too.
They’ve been very successful with constitutional carry and preemption among the big wins for this formerly purple, now red, state
I meant blue state. VA has now turned blue.
Sorry, man. I’ve lived in NH and FL – both pretty good states for gun rights. NH is almost absolutist, and FL is decent.
I’m with you up until the land tax part. I agree that there’s an appropriate role for government (I’m somewhere in the “nightwatchman” neighborhood, myself) and I think that, realistically, at some point for the common expenditures to work you’re going to have to get some people to pay for other people, either in the form of taxation or in the form of baking the costs of free riders into usage fees. I’m just not wild about the idea of taxing land ownership, largely because of the consequences of non-payment and the implications thereof.
What I mean is, what happens when someone doesn’t pay? Is the land confiscated? If the land can be confiscated because recurring taxes weren’t paid on it, then it wasn’t really owned by the person to begin with. That means the state owns the land in perpetuity, essentially. I’m not okay with that. Mind you, the implication of income tax is even worse, and the sales tax isn’t a hell of a lot better, but there’s something about a land tax that cuts into individual liberty in my mind in a way that’s worse than the others.
I don’t have a good alternative. I’m not saying I’m privy to a better answer. If I was, I’d go off and start Billtopia today.
But don’t you see, just owning the land produces magical rents that go into your checking account that it’s perfectly ok for the government to take because you didn’t build that or do anything to create returns using your capital investment.
yes magical rents is the exact argument.
What I mean is, what happens when someone doesn’t pay? – depends… if they can’t pay there can be solutions. if they won’t then government no longer recognizes ownership. but this article is not about the land tax that was sort of a joke
Well, I guess that’s where the pragmatism vs principle bit comes in. For me, I accept the necessity of taxation on a practical level, but that means betraying my belief in individual liberty at some point, particularly where the penalties for non-compliance come in to play. But I don’t have a solution that gets you the things you need from government without at some point requiring people to pay up whether they want to or not.
What I mean is, what happens when someone doesn’t pay?
Which, in principle, i might not object to some sort of “stamp tax”. Let contracts only be enforceable in a court of law if they’ve been stamped. The price of the stamp can be some portion (probably a few basis points) of their notional value. If you don’t want to pay, fine. No problem. You just don’t have recourse to the Courts to enforce your contract.
I think we could maintain essential government services through user fees, no taxes needed. Military could fund itself by being hired out. This doesn’t necessarily always include conflict, part of that would be regular payments from the countries we’re currently providing defense for.
Perhaps a very small tariff would necessary, and it could be argued that’s a tax, but it’s as unobtrusive as I think is possible. And I’m still not ready to give up on complete funding through user fees.
See my stamp tax above.
What about selling ballots? Your first ballot costs $1, the second ballot $10, third $100, etc. Or simply charging a flat rate to vote (say $3,000, 5% of $60,000 [approximate median household income]).
And then you make voting mandatory…
A common complaint is that people are voting who aren’t paying taxes, so why not link them? I’m just spitting out ideas here, with no real depth behind them. It’s not likely that I’ll be a dictator of a state and can set policies like this.
The ‘mandatory voting’ would be implemented as a revenue measure.
I’m not advocating it, just stating what would happen.
In fact, you have to vote twice this year, because coffers are running a bit short.
“We have scheduled another mandatory referendum on the status of the national bird.”
“This year, we’re gonna vote on the amount of the polling tax. You won’t even have to go to the polling place, Bruno and Max will stop by your place and take your vote.”
“Make sure and vote right.”
I have yet to hear any decent natural law rights to land ownership.
Having the government issue deeds is a pragmatic solution (to get it back on topic) and then having the government taxing the raw land (not the improvements) while not perfect, isn’t the worst thing ever. Yes, it means the government owns the land in some real sense. But the income tax and sales tax mean they own our lives, and that is much worse.
You have, and you dismiss them without even bothering to contemplate them. Your stance is either against the existance of property, or a lack of principle with regards to property rights so that your proposed policy position doesn’t produce cognitive dissonance.
The best I have heard is Locke’s and I don’t buy it. I contemplated it for years and found it lacking.
Either people have a right to property or they don’t. There is nothing special about land that makes it exempt from protection.
There is nothing special about land – yes there is you you dismiss it without even bothering to contemplate
Land including mineral deposits, unlike every other species of property, predates people, governments, law etc. At some point, for Land to become property, someone has to simply announce ownership. That initial owner has no inherent right to the land. It is not his by derivation from his self ownership via his labor, as items of personal property can be. It is not his by purchase or devise. It is his because he claimed it and was able to defend it. The natural law origin of property ownership is right of conquest.
Pretending the question is about people having a right to property in the abstract is disingenuous. The question is by what right does that 1 person claiming the land own it. The answer is by some chain of purchase, grant or devise from the guy who most recently planted his flag there and killed all comers. Which raises the question of how, or how long before, a conquest is legitimized.
Land ownership is messy in ways personal property isn’t.
All property is dependant on the ability to defend it – whether you have outsourced it or not. Rights are powerless without the force to back them up.
The question is by what right does that 1 person claiming the land own it. The answer is by some chain of purchase, grant or devise from the guy who most recently planted his flag there and killed all comers.
Pretty much. However, I’m not so sure personal property is any different. Everything ties back to land ownership in fundamental ways. You live in a house built out of stuff mined or harvested from land. You own a car made out of stuff extracted from land. That plastic gizmo? Made out of oil extracted from land. Everything material is derived from land. I also think there’s an argument that all labor inputs derive from land, as well; you are alive and have labor to create things because of food, grown on land.
The ownership of land goes back to right of conquest. Everything of economic value derives, directly or indirectly, from the land. I think that means that ownership of everything goes back to right of conquest.
All property is dependant on the ability to defend it
Which is what I said early on.
Yup. The Chickasaw were tricked out of my land fair and square: come and take it.
Read Louisiana torrens some time: Z bought from Y who bought from A who was granted parcel by the State which was purchased from Napoleon by whose Empire inherited it from the Bourbon line to whom the Hapsburgs ceded it from amongst their holdings, including the Viceroyalty of Cuba, claimed for that family pursuant to the divine right of kings. The Caddo and the Natchez aren’t amongst the citations.
I’m gone to Links!
Pretty much. However, I’m not so sure personal property is any different.
I think it is different. Perhaps you can argue that since all physical property includes raw materials it partakes of land’s messiness, but the fact that those raw materials were refined, formed, combined etc. clearly adds much of the value of the personal property in away that does not apply to raw land. Is my car parallel to my house in this sure, but that parallel is to the house, not to the land.
the fact that those raw materials were refined, formed, combined etc. clearly adds much of the value of the personal property in away that does not apply to raw land.
“Value” is not the same as “ownership”. Labor inputs absolutely add value, but are they the sole source of ownership?
As I have said before, I agree with George on this:
I find no land ownership right convincing, but property rights work. So lets stick with them, but extract the rents for all. The government isn’t the best way to split that, but it is what we got.
That is a pretty horrible paraphrase of Henry George, but the best I can do.
Any returns from ownership represent the effort and capital sunk into the property. The community has no claim to these.
that is not what the land tax is
It is the response to what Robc just said.
the land tax taxes the value of unimproved land not Any returns from ownership from effort and capital. you pay the same whether you make money off the land or not
the land tax taxes the value of unimproved land not Any returns from ownership from effort and capital.
Typically, the price of the unimproved land is considered a capital investment. Although with a sufficiently high land tax and recourse against the owner’s other assets, I could see people paying other people to take title to their land, so the land tax might not have to deal with this complication.
Government ownership of all land is not very libertarian.
Why stop there?
you own land in the sens no one can take it from you as long as you pay the tax. a compromise as such
you own land in the sens no one can take it from you as long as you pay the tax
Sounds like what we have now. Don’t pay your property taxes, and sooner or later the State will seize your land.
Total government spending in the US is around $7 trillion a year. I struggle with a land tax that could raise that much money, year after year, without devolving into straightup government ownership of every acre and the government essentially having a ground lease with every single person who wanted to use any land. IOW, a return to feudalism.
oh spending needs to go down by a lot
There’s no reason that non-payment of taxes on land must result in land forfeiture. I don’t know if wage garnishments are used for non-payment of property taxes, but they could in theory be used. Forfeiture of other assets could be possible. Withholding of government services is something we already do, if the regular stories of “We din pay our far department tax and dem ebil farman din put our are house far” stories are to be believed.
If you owe a tax, the government can and will take any and all assets to pay the tax. Immunizing land from forfeiture would just mean that the government will start taking your other assets at an even faster rate, and would actually make land ownership less attractive. That’s the scenario where you start paying other people to take the land off your hands.
oh spending needs to go down by a lot
Indeed it does. But if we are looking at a new tax system, it needs to be one that funds current spending level without causing more disruption than the current system.
That’s assuming people don’t have the right to walk away from their asset. If I knew anything about common law, I’d know the answer to this, but is there not some common law concept for returning unwanted property to the commons? If not, there could be under this scheme. Even if it goes to the government, that would still be different in that it would allow people to hold onto property for “irrational” reasons (e.g., negative expected value but strong emotional value) or to allow for long term/risky/illiquid investments with the land.
That’s assuming people don’t have the right to walk away from their asset.
Even if abandoning property meant you couldn’t be charged for any more land tax, I think you would still owe the back taxes.
But let’s say the back taxes attach solely to the land, so that the next owner owes them. He doesn’t pay them, or any new taxes, and he walks away (because why not? You get off the hook for taxes you owe by abandoning the asset). When you benefit from abandoning property, you don’t have much incentive to invest in improvements.
If I don’t want to improve my property, that is my business. Incentivizing me to improve it means you’re butting it where you don’t belong.
Well.. yes. You get less of whatever you tax. All taxes are distortionary. Most taxes are stupid. I think a land-tax is stupid even when compared to other tax types.
I just think you are reading too much of the real world into a hypothetical, which is driving attention away from the issues with a land tax. Its incorporating rules developed in Earth Prime here where we don’t have a land tax into Earth 2 where there is a land tax and saying Land Tax No Good Because of Earth Prime Rules Don’t Work With a Land Tax.
If I don’t want to improve my property, that is my business. Incentivizing me to improve it means you’re butting it where you don’t belong.
I think attaching the land tax to the land creates a disincentive to improve it.
Land Tax No Good Because of Earth Prime Rules Don’t Work With a Land Tax.
Abandoning property with no further obligations and attaching the tax solely to the land aren’t Earth Prime rules. I’m trying to do the thought experiment thing here.
The problem with the current land tax is that 99% of the tax goes to fund things other than administration and enforcement of the property right. A land tax for the purpose of ensuring property rights makes complete sense.
The current “property tax” is mere accounting laziness – aggregating the other taxes onto one tax bill and calling it a land tax because the cost is computed based on one’s property value doesn’t make it a property rights enforcement tax. It’s a “property-value-based education tax”, a “property-value-based park district tax”, etc. all rolled into one. But it shouldn’t be – imagine getting an individual tax bill for every individual government function – it would be a giant pain in the ass but nobody would be confused about what they are paying for each government function.
I guess I would start with whether there is a natural right to ownership of any property at all, and then look at why land (or any other form of property) would be excluded from this natural right.
I would not confuse the convenience and efficiency of a centralized repository of land ownership records, with the inherent lack of a natural right to own land. Classically, property rights include a bundle of rights, including the right to exclude others, the right to use so long as your use does not infringe on the use of neighboring parcels, that kind of thing. I haven’t followed the back and forth on this, but nothing leaps to mind about land that would make it unsuitable for these rights.
Alright, so if you find a stick, and nobody else owns the stick, and you turn the stick into a spear, you’d say it’s your spear, right? Because you’ve put labor into it and made it something new? So let’s back it down and say you’ve found a stick, and you think it’s a perfectly good stick and want to leave it as-is. It’s your stick now, right? What if you set it down and leave for a week. Can someone else claim it?
Now back it down further. You’ve found a cave. It’s a great cave. No bears, no snakes, close to a spring. You move in. Is it your cave? Does it become your cave if you put your stuff in it? What if you build a nice set of mahogany bookshelves into a cranny? Can the bookshelves, which exist only in the context of their being a modification of this particular bit of land, belong to you without the cave itself belonging to you?
I don’t know, I’ve got a lot of problems with land tax, like I say, and not a lot of better alternatives. Determining the amount of tax owed is one. Income and sales taxes, while shitty in terms of implications as to ownership, at least have a sound, equal metric to determine the amount of tax charged, because the amount of the transaction is being determined by the people involved in it. A land tax that doesn’t take into account any improvements has to either say that all land is equally valuable, which is clearly not true, land value is determined by the theoretical profit one could glean from it, which has all sorts of problems, not the least of which being that the government determining the value has a conflict of interest, or land value is determined by the use to which it is eventually put, which creates the strange incentive whereby it might be better for people to use land as inefficiently as possible to avoid taxes.
The land tax, to me, is just not very interesting because it is built on a set of societal assumptions that were once true and pervasive, and are just not true (ie income from land due to agriculture). It would make as much sense as requiring a “Made in America” if and only if a product is actually made in America. (For those of you not into manufacturing, the supply chain is so integrated and international that this is an intractable problem in 2018) Or requiring a small seasonal restaurant to have a printed sign with “the” ingredients in every dish (which changes day to day based on market rates and quality of produce.)
It only works if one doesn’t know or is willfully ignorant of the way reality works.
What if I see an apple on the ground and pick it up. I don’t do anything with it. Is it my apple, or can somebody just snatch it out of my hand and eat it? If it is “my” apple because I picked it up, does it stop being mine when I set it down? If the labor of picking it up is what made it mine, that doesn’t go away when I set it down, does it?
What if I take “my” apple and trade it to some guy who has a stick that I really like. Is it my stick now, even if I don’t turn it into a spear? Is my ownership transitive, so that if I trade something that is mine for something else, that other thing becomes mine even if I don’t put any labor into it?
I find that cave, and start living there. Don’t do any renos or anything. Some guy comes along and wants to live there instead of me. One of us is getting kicked out. Which one has the better claim – me, because I was there first, or him, because he’s bigger and stronger than I am?
You own it if you can stop other people from taking it away from you.
So you have to be the biggest, strongest person around. Or you need to have an agreement with the biggest, strongest person around. Until weapons make big and strong ineffective. Then you need to have the best weapons around. Or have an agreement with the person that has the best weapons around. Of course at this point, you can take everyone else’s stuff.
What were talking about?
You picked it up. That is labor. You added value, as minuscule as it is.
So when I set it down, its still mine?
And if I trade it for something that I put no labor into, that other thing is mine, too?
You added value, as minuscule as it is.
I added value to me, but no one else. The stick now has value to me because I can use it, I guess. If minuscule and purely subjective value counts, then why wouldn’t me living in the cave count (the cave now has value to me because I can use it), so the cave is mine, too?
But the stick was created by God and belongs to all of us — unless you are Suthenboy and you planted the seed yourself, then the stick belongs to him
So, if Suthen sticks a seed worth practically nothing in the ground, and does nothing else, he owns the entire tree even though that tree was grown by God exactly the same as a tree in the wilderness was grown by God? And even though God made the seed?
The fiction of resource property rights
My property rights in resources that I discover in totally unclaimed wilderness might be”fictional”, but if ownership is transitive, then resources that I pay for are mine, no fiction?
unclaimed is the issue.
If you buy the resources from me, then the ownership is transitive. If it is currently unclaimed, then it is owned by everyone, so you need to enter into a contract with 6 billion people to own it. Or, we simplify and allow the government to “own” the land, which sucks, but its easier than tracking down everyone.
That’s a hell of an assertion.
Yes it is. You got a better one? I mean, we can go with “finder’s keepers”, but I think that means Vespucci’s family owns the new world (or, you know, those pesky natives).
The 3rd option is Might makes Right. Which is probably the most accurate, but I don’t think we want to enshrine NAP violations as the foundation of property rights.
How about “go with the moral intuitions of the population to which you would subject these rules.”
Coming up with ideological assertions about human nature and then building a huge set of assumptions on top, without actually checking to see if those ideological assertions is correct, is bound to produce a system that doesn’t work well.
Owned by everyone means owned by no one. The fundamental property right is the right to exclude others.
The philosophical question is “How and why does something owned by no one become owned by someone?”
Space exploration will soon pose this question in a very real way. “See that asteroid? Its got minerals worth billions. Who owns it?”
If we say no one does, then no one will exploit the minerals. If we say everyone does, then no one will exploit the minerals. The practical question will be “How does someone get recognized property rights in that asteroid?”
Went to a “women in STEM” day with my then-13yo XX tax deduction. There were a bunch of college girls there as well as professional women engineers, etc.
One of these girls (who had an engineering degree, IIRC) was in law school and her specialty was SPACE LAW. Blew my everlovin mind.
That is Locke’s argument that I don’t accept.
The “raw” apple is still not yours.
You own the value added by “processing” (picking up) the apple.
Because they are mixed, we can’t easily separate them, but that doesn’t mean you should own the whole apple.
Which comes back to George’s argument. Property rights work, don’t much with them. But, the raw apple still belongs to everyone. The only way to make this work is to tax the economic rents of the raw apple and then that should be distributed evenly to everyone.
Same for the stick. The value added by turning it into a spear belongs to the individual. But the stick was created by God and belongs to all of us — unless you are Suthenboy and you planted the seed yourself, then the stick belongs to him – minus a tax on the seed.
Leap is wrong. This isn’t a purely agrarian argument. It applies to any raw resources. Land, trees, air, ore, etc. The fiction of resource property rights is necessary for the system to work, but the tax offsets the value of owning the raw resource.
Why should this money go to the state? It shouldn’t. Of course, we are thinking of a current mega-state, if it was a nightwatchman state, it wouldn’t be such a big deal.
I’m not saying that no land has value due to the raw resources. I’m saying that’s not the ubiquitous source of value for all land. In George’s time, little things like “cities” could be overlooked as sand in the joints the way that friction can be overlooked in a high-school physics problem because it is a small edge case.
In 2018, this edge case is too big for any such Georgist system to handle. Manhattan and San Fran don’t have astronomic land prices because of their rich deposits of raw resources, and they still sell at the highest prices in the world even if they are empty lots.
They have astronomic land prices due to location…and not just being on the coast. But because the city grew up around them.
That can mean two things (which I covered slightly in my essay some months back):
1. It is improvements to the raw land and shouldn’t be taxed.
2. It is improvements to the raw land SPECIFICALLY DUE TO GOVERNMENT ACTIONS, such as good laws, and roads and etc. In which case, the value being added by the state, the state being able to tax said value is even less horrible than the normal land tax case.
I think it is a mix of the two. Some of #1 is due to your neighbors, well, good for you, you located properly. Some is due to you.
Case #2 isn’t that hard to make, although it doesn’t explain SF and NY. Although some of SF is due to artificial inflation of the land due to bad government policies…such as zoning. Way too much of SF is limited to single-family homes. Downtown SF should look a lot more like Manhattan…which would drop the land prices dramatically.
I remember your argument. It was wrong then and is wrong now. Your forgot the actually correct third option.
3) The value is derived from physical proximity to a high density of information-based industry. Unless your argument is that the BART and Shit-and-needle-collection teams in SF are so efficient that they make people want to live there.
That is exactly what I said:
Some of #1 is due to your neighbors, well, good for you, you located properly.
The neighbors, in this case, being information-based industry.
Although I think horrible zoning is a bigger reason for the cost of the property.
Do you have a citation to any Georgist writings that discuss this? Because everything that I’ve read by any Georgist completely skips over the subjective value of land due to neighborhood (pun intended) effects. If I’ve missed this, I’m very interested in filling up this gap in my understanding.
How do they account for the distortion effect of this policy? Because it would have a huge distortion around the knowledge economy, wouldn’t it? And the whole point of a single land tax is that it is (allegedly) non-distortionary.
Short answer: no.
Unless you count me, then, yes, this thread.
Is recursive footnoting allowed?
it is, allegedly, without deadweight loss. Non-distortionary? Maybe.
What you get at, and is a good question, is should the land-tax tax non-obvious improvements to the land.
The exact same land, in the middle of Wyoming, is worth less than in Manhattan. But the additional value of the land in Manhattan in entirely due to location and institutions and neighbors and etc.
Most land taxes I have seen proposed would tax at this higher value in Manhattan.
My gedankenexperiment from a while back suggested otherwise as the tax is set at the initial discovery of the land. So Manhattan would still be taxed higher than Wyoming, but not as much as would exist under the other system.
In some sense, I guess that is distortionary. The bigger problem I have is the distortion due to legal regulations that artificially drive up the price of the land. But some of those “legal regulations” are good, such as a decent court system.
OT There’s something to be said for being to the point. Not quite as to the point as “Eat” at Heathrow, but Canukistan tries
“I never got the whole socialism would work if humans were better”
I’m not so sure if it’s humans need to be “better”, but humans need to be fundamentally different in impossible ways for socialism to work.
Bees and other eusocial insects successfully implement Communism because of their reproductive function. It takes something that fundamental in order for Communism to work as designed. The Soviets were smart enough to know that you needed a “New Soviet Man” to get socialism to function, they just underestimated how big a change (and how impossible it would be) was needed.
Hm, progressivism and eugenics…. you may be on to something!
Of course. That is what eugenics has always been about.
It’s a dumb statement. The Athenian style of democracy would have worked if they had been better people. The Aztec Empire would have worked if they were better people…
Athenian “Democracy” wasn’t even anything of the sort. It was an oligarchy. The definition of the ‘demos’ was absurdly narrow.
Well sure, nobody dumb enough to let women, peasants, or slaves vote.
“Improving” humans to make socialism better is both its flaw and its purpose.
Firmly establish self-ownership and I dont care where we go after that, any system would work.
Where’s robc? Ha ha ha. (In all honesty, I think there are much worse ideas – we’re living through some of them)
I only read about 75% before skipping down to comment. Now I got to go read the rest.
The Single Land Tax is the worst tax idea possible, except for all the others that have been tried.
Except maybe the head tax. Maybe.
I have to pay a tax every time I get head?
I been married for 27 years… so I’m good with that.
The statute has passed.
Oh, great, like it isn’t a hard enough sell without being taxed.
Wait a second guys… do we get to pick the tax collector?
Sorry hon, none yet this year.
*nudge nudge* *wink wink*
Q gets to pick the tax collectors.
“So is socialism right out? Socialism was always right out. I never got the whole socialism would work if humans were better. If humans were better, it would still not work and anyway there would be no need of it. There is no situation where socialism is needed or desired”
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation ran a piece just yesterday on the downside of the fall of East German communism: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-09/east-germany-and-the-fall-of-the-berlin-wall/10334066
It’s quite bizarre as it checks off a lot of the “we were all miserable together” boxes; e.g. “”There was something we had which I can only describe as solidarity,” says Christian Wolter, a carpenter who grew up in East Berlin.
“The policeman and the plumber were having to deal with the same problems as you, and there was a certain kind of binding factor there. You helped each other”
But it also shows just how destructive such systems are to basic human nature and the concept of voluntary association. A couple of the people interviewed, lamented the loss of the “cooperative” society they grew up in. But, both moved to Amsterdam and joined a voluntary collective. Neither of them, nor the author, make the connection.
It’s a moderate-length piece and an interesting read.
“If humans were better, [socialism] would still not work and anyway there would be no need of it. ”
This.
This was true of the majority of the planet until the 1930s. What’s your point?
I think he’s saying he wants to destroy capitalism and all of its fruits.
That’s a gambol.
my point is i like central heating air conditioning plumbing and good wine
But you haven’t proven that those depend on the existence of a state. Zomia might have had those things too (excepting the wine) had the Black Flags not fled there in the aftermath of the Taiping Rebellion, and later the Panthay Rebellion, leading to increased presence by the Qing in the north and the Siamese in the south.
it is no possible to prove conclusively. but it seems quite unlikely given the only thing that kept em stateless was no private property and capital accumulation
I disagree on both parts. The many of hill tribes of Zomia do recognize private property and capital. If anything kept them stateless, it was the Mandala system. A system of larger “realms” competing for the tribute of smaller communities in exchange for protection sounds very an-cap to me.
Did you know that the majority of the kids trapped in that Thai cave were stateless Zomians? While the Thai government granted them citizenship after their ordeal, they were enjoying air conditioning and plumbing (squat toliets, yes, but plumbing) before they entered that cave.
air conditioning – local technology i’m sure
OT: I can’t believe she went along with this.
https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/man-lists-used-girlfriend-for-sale-on-ebay-is-shocked-when-bids-reach-119g
Some people have a sense of humor.
The fact that she thought the whole thing was funny and went along with it shows how awesome she is. Jokes like this generally backfire in some way at some point with even the coolest women.
Oh, he’ll pay for it eventually.
Only if he doesn’t get arrested for human trafficking first.
I like “rear end leaks a little, but nothing that can’t be plugged”.
Who uses “g” any more?
I don’t see any gigadollars in that price listing!
My pragmaticish immigration policy:
1. Eliminate quotas (for the new policy – after typing too much below I am editing and calling it a Purple Card)
2. Anyone who wants a Purple Card must come to a border center and submit to a background check.
3. With a Purple Card you can work in the US for up to the next 330 days.
4. Before your 330 days end, you must check back out at the border and leave the country for at least 30 days.
5. After 30 days, you can get a new Purple Card. Rinse and repeat.
6. Anyone crossing the border otherwise will be treated as a foreign invader, and possibly shot on sight.
7. If you want something leading to citizenship or more permanent, stick with the current system.
Before your 330 days end, you must check back out at the border and leave the country for at least 30 days. – I find this silly. how about prove you were a good resident and don’t have to leave the country? And you know loose your job… this will work for unqualified people taking short term jobs
“6. Anyone crossing the border otherwise will be treated as a foreign invader, and possibly shot on sight.”
Neither endorsing nor denigrating your ideas, but as a practical matter all you’d need to do is implement this and you could leave the current system in place in toto.
The current system has horrible quota problems.
I don’t want there to be an incentive to illegally cross.
#6 was stolen from the Baknarik campaign.
Thirty days is not enough time for them to maintain their ties to their homelands. I propose they be required to stay home two days for every one spent in-country. Bing here 11/12ths of their time makes them residents, not guests.
You say not enough, Pie says too much. Must be about right then.
My actual position is that we don’t allow guest workers at all.
well we are thinking libertarian-ish solutions here not nationalist
we need more controversy people. this could be my last post ever here if things go wrong
You mean if we play nice you go away?
The Yankees suck! The Astros suck ! etc
So, how much have you drank tonight? It must be getting late in that corner of the world.
half bottle of wine
Nu mai sunt români!
Wine being a euphemism for an alcohol soaked peasant that he’s drained half dry.
So Pie, Given your command of the English language, were you originally intended to be a mole in the US for the Romanian communists.
I was a super-spy by 4… I am old but not ancient
Actually, he’s part of the Eastern European troll farming community.
Redux does not really work but r is sort of like p…
I think this is when Pie blew his cover. He is a Russian spy. Cyrillic P = Roman R. Who else would think that P and R have a connection?
Hey Pie. I bothered!
As far as principles. I have to be honest. I’m libertarianish because liberty works. If Socialism worked I’d be a socialist. If Communism worked, I’d be a communist. If Fascism worked I’d be a fascist. But none of them do despite what millions of people believe and work for.
laame
That’s a shaky foundation to base any defense of liberty on. Whether any of the other “isms” work depends entirely on who you ask about it. There certainly are people for whom all of those things worked, though it came at a devastating cost for someone else. I’m a libertarian because despite whatever pragmatic results may arise from these “isms”, they will never outweigh my or anyone else’s right to life, liberty and property.
Its shaky in the sense that if something comes along that demonstrates better results, Dr F (and me) might change our minds. Its not shaky because “Hey this other system results in fewer deaths/more prosperity” is a pretty good reason to change your mind.
“Whether any of the other “isms” work depends entirely on who you ask about it.”
Yeah, looks like we’ll all have to be responsible for our own assessments.
Had an interesting discussion with a prog this morning. He said Ford’s allegations were credible thus believable. I said credible is also defined as possible.
I asked how he felt about birtherism. Pure b.s. No, I said, the allegations were credible in that Obama’s mother would have had every incentive to have her boy be a U.S. citizen. Because the charges were credible, why all the nastiness directed to birthers? Yada yada yada. He stormed off when I said that maybe an FBI investigation that looked into Obama’s college applications, to see what he claimed, would prove dispositive. (Yes, I do believe Obama was born in Hawai’i.)
Is it possible? potentially
Is it relevent? No.
Do we even reach a preponderance of the evidence that it happened? Hell no. In fact, we might even have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Ford is mistaken or lying.
You can add “credible” and “corroboration” to the long list of words that the left has perverted.
“Credible” just means “believable enough to be worth following up on”. Nothing more. A little more than “possible”, but not much. “I find that witness credible” is some distance from “Things happened as that witness describes”.
“Corroboration” means “independent support”. The corroboration that matters is corroboration of the core accusations. What is cited as corroboration of Ford’s accusations is corroboration of non-core context: yes, they both lived in the area; yes, they were close enough in age to have gone to the same parties; etc. What is not corroborated, at all, are the core accusations that they were both at any party together; that Ford suffered any apparent trauma from a sexual assault, etc. For that, we have only Ford’s testimony, and absolutely nothing else. At some point, lack of what should be available corroborating evidence (and there is a fair amount of it that could be found and presented) erodes the credibility of the accusation.
Credibility is also eroded by demonstrable untruths, which Ford has told. In typical Roman fashion, falsus in uno, falsus in omnia is an overstatement with a kernel of truth. Once a witness is caught lying about something relevant, their credibility is questionable.
And, as UnCiv points out, the elephant in the room is “relevant”. Is high school misbehavior, that was a misdemeanor at the time, relevant to an appointment to the federal court? Until now, the FBI has never done background checks into anyone’s behavior as a minor, because no one thought it was relevant.
A few decades ago, there was a parody persona on Reddit of a 13 year old social justice advocate (this was before the SJW term or Tumblr was around.) This character didn’t know what “likeminded” means, and used it as a synonym for good-think. “If you are a likeminded person, like myself, you know that what is going on is NOT OK.” It was great. Any time he was referring to himself he was “likeminded.”
Now, of course, we are beyond parody. Every time a left-of-center commentator uses the word “allegation,” it is no longer an allegation. It is now and forever a “credible allegation.” Every fucking time. Its notable for just how inapplicable it is. The day before Ford’s testimony, I actually heard someone use it in the future tense.
How dare you question Her Truth ™
Credibility is also eroded by demonstrable untruths.
This, a thousand times this (gigathis, even).
Here’s the thing though – I don’t find Ms. Ford’s allegations credible. Plausible? Perhaps. If, by plausible, you mean they can’t be dismissed out of hand. But, not particularly believable.
I tend to look at claims that I’m uncertain of with the question – “How much faith would I need to believe this?”. And the fact is that I’d have to employ a lot of faith to accept Ms. Ford’s claims. And that’s my major problem with the whole #believewomen spiel. It’s fundamentally a call to take women’s claims on faith.
Did you tell him that even assuming her story was completely true, grabbing some bint’s honkers was no big deal? I feel that would have been a more expedient strategy for managing the interaction.
Given the venue where this conversation took place (a church fellowship meeting) , I believed discretion was the better part of valor in refraining from saying teenagers drinking beer and trying to feel each other up is normal behavior.
What’s the point of a beachfront hotel if the hotel closes the beach? If I wanted to hear screaming kids next to a pool blaring music, I’d book a Disney hotel.
To look out the window and see the water.
Ouch, that sucks. Where is it? (A gulf beach in Florida?)
Mexico.
Pursuant Pondering of Pragmatism in Politics
finally a relevant comment
Pondering of Pragmatism in Politics, Pursuant to a Previous Post. Too pretentious?
Bit long but acceptable
Possibly.
OT Crazy theory that will probably never happen: Trump hates being president and will not run in 2020. Nikki Haley stepped down to begin preparations to run in 2020… 2nd time attempting to lost this sorry if it double posts.
This is the second time Pie has written an article similar to one that I have been working on.
It is slow going. Some subjects are easy for me to write about, others… not so much.
Sounds like you’re ideal is a constitutional republic. Sounds familiar… But I’d say the founding fathers screwed up when, knowing that taxation would lead to a redistributive economy, they didn’t add a clause explicitly forbidding the transfer of taxes from one citizen to another. Not sure what that exact verbiage would be, but it should bolster the idea of limiting the fed gubmint to its enumerated powers and prevent states from creating entitlement programs.
That idea was floated but they dropped the ball. In fact nearly every idea you can imagine was discussed at length. It is amazing to me how many bad ideas they tried to get rid of yet we still struggle with them today. Every new generation of dumbasses has to burn their hand on the stove and re-learn everything all over again.
By the way, no land taxes. As you can imagine I think land taxes are a bad idea but probably not for the reasons most would think.
Now I’m curious. What reasons do you have against it?
You dont own it if you have to pay tribute every year. It isnt yours, the govt/king whoever is just letting you use it at their pleasure. Functionally it is no different from a feudal system.
Second, I grow timber. Add up the taxes I pay every year over the thirty years it takes to grow saw logs, add in the cost of planting and maintenance and guess what? I am growing that timber for free. Also, subsidized timber (national/state goddamned forest) keeps the price of timber artificially low. Want to see someone turn red in the face and have smoke coming out of their ears? Tell any timber buyer/seller two words – National Forest.
my view is you pay for service – protection of your property. Also timberland is not that expensive I would assume compared to downtown Manhatan so the tax would not be that high.
National Forest is a different story
Protection of property? Is that with a wink along the lines of “Hey nice property you got here, sure would be a shame if something happens to it”
My property tax funds a lot of shitty services, but protection certainly isn’t one of them*. The biggest threat is from the government itself. I can handle any threat below that, and if I couldn’t, I’d be hiring out that protection to a third party service who seeks my voluntarily business.
*Fire is volunteer, ambulance is private. I consider the police a revenue producing arm of the county and most emphatically not a protective service.
The fact of the matter is that property is smd always was dependent on the government structures or tribal assemblies or whatever
Definitely, no argument from me on property protection being perhaps the most important function of government. My point was just that this function is not necessarily connected to property taxes. I would receive the same level of protective services living directly under the state government without a local gov in between. My state gov collects zero in property taxes.
My general argument on land tax has nothing to do with how property taxes are used now.
I have no problem with the idea of national forest but the govt should be forbidden to harvest timber from it.
I agree
I’ve gotta run, but a quick tax idea…
Interim: Set a flat income tax. But each taxpayer can select which percentage of their taxes go to which gubmint department. The departments would get used to marketing and being subject to “consumer group” type scrutiny.
Down the road: Eliminate the flat tax altogether and make the whole thing voluntary. The departments would have to market their services completely or get no money.
Finally, privatize all non-enumerated departments.
Land taxes act very much like a fee-simple leasehold situation. The lease holder has rights of usage, but doesn’t actually own the land. (Maybe somebody said that earlier, I might have missed it.)
Sort of but as a perpetual lease. But that is the case world wide.
they didn’t add a clause explicitly forbidding the transfer of taxes from one citizen to another
That was the original understanding of the General Welfare clause.
Now it just means welfare is constitutional. SMH.
For a bunch of super educated guys they sure managed to screw up a lot of language. I like the idea of a council of morons to review proposed legislation for clarity.
Their inability to predict how language drift over two centuries + their inability to make a text immune to motivated reading doesn’t mean they screwed up. This is what their contemporaries where doing with language at the time.
They didn’t screw up the language. The other side deliberately twisted it over time. It is absolutely impossible to draft the sort of general principle laws you need in a constitution in a way that can withstand deliberate attempts to misinterpret them. At the end of the day a constitutional republic is dependent upon the ongoing willingness of the electorate to understand the principles of the society and to be willing to forego individual advantage to uphold them.
Perhaps that verbiage was explicit for their time…?
It was. In fact most of it still is. A few words like bills of attainder and emoluments are archaic to modern ears but not excessively so.
“Shall not be infringed” Completely indecipherable.
I have read their non-official explanations and verbiage. They spoke almost identical to the way we do. They were perfectly capable of clarity and knew damned well their words would be twisted.
“You ask who are the militia? They are the body of the people, every person capable of bearing arms.” – George Mason, co-author of this doozie:
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Why do I have to ask? It’s infuriating.
Perhaps that verbiage was explicit for their time…?
It was. See James Madison, Mr. “Father of the Constitution” himself:
I will also recommend this short debate in Congress, in 1794, in which Madison persuaded the Congress against appropriating money for the relief of refugees from the rebellions in Haiti, on account of charity being outside the general welfare. Of note on that page is the footnote, wherein it reveals that by 1812 Congress had already reversed course and started funding charitable aid.
*your
I wouldn’t say that the Founders screwed up. It’s impossible to hold back expanding government, when all politicians and civil servants are working for that aim, and the culture glorifies free shit and handouts. Institutional safeguards work as log as those are respected and honored.
This. At the end of the day, it’s a piece of paper. You get enough people at the levers of power who don’t give a shit, the paper can’t hold them back.
– Lysander Spooner
That Lysander was a cool dude. I would have liked to have known him.
who is pretty much the poster child for the impractical, purist libertarian.
Bingo. He seems like one of those people I’m glad was contributing to the public discourse, but that was probably pretty insufferable to spend time with.
But you are willing to spend time with us issufferable assholes? ;^)
Impractical? He lowered postal rates in the United States by >80% and (adjusted for inflation) they still are well below what they were when he decided to take on the USPS.
Impractical? He played a critical role in eroding public apathy towards slavery.
Dude wasn’t impractical. His major failing was that his enemies wrote the history books.
They did consider it. It was a feature, not a bug. Alexander Hamilton and his buddies put a great deal of effort into a scheme wherein they bought bonds issued by the Continental Congress to fund the War of Independence at a steep discount (because the United States government wasn’t making bond payments) and then once, they got it reconstituted under a new constitution, they had the U.S. government to pay them off at full face value. Additionally, they immediately set about on infrastructure projects to line their pockets. They weren’t the public spirited solons they are portrayed as being now.
OT:
Radical left-wing activists from Antifa attacked a table set up by the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay conservative group, at the Castro Street Fair on Sunday in San Francisco, California.
The Log Cabin Republicans had set up a booth to provide information about its views, and to encourage like-minded people in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) community to register to vote. A left-wing activist alerted Antifa — short for “anti-fascist,” though its critics believe otherwise — via Twitter and urged it to attack the Republican group. “To all #antifa of good conscience let’s take care of the fascists queers,” the message — which has not yet been removed — said.
https://www.breitbart.com/california/2018/10/09/antifa-attacks-log-cabin-republicans-booth-at-castro-street-fair/
Ernst Röhm? He’s been dead for decades.
They’re communists, their grasp of history is… tenuous at best.
Their grasp of anything is tenuous. I have yet to hear an antifa thug that sounded sane.
A person approached the booth and engaged in conversation, but suddenly screamed F- Trump and poured Gatorade over the table damaging most of our material including the sign-up sheet
that’s just sad.
Only if the person didn’t get a beating.
TOLERANCE!
#RESIST
I have a deadpan answer to everyone who claims some sort of assault; I ask: why didn’t you shoot the bum/the dog/the whatever?
This will all settle down after the first time some large guy aggressively strides inside of someone’s 14′ perimeter and is dispatched to eternity.
I’m not endorsing mindless pistolcraft, but I do assure you that there is cause to have fear of harm in many of these situations, the backbone of a defense argument, so some justifiable discharge will be part of the record soon.
Mindless Pistolcraft.
Band or album name?
hadn’t thought of that; how am I going to sell an album to the children with that title?
even the “original” wildass Southern boys were afraid of pistols
Saturday Night Special
yes and no.
Gimme Back my Bullets
I thought Bullets had to do with Billboard ratings or some such, but I don’t really know.
Classic confirmation bias: I recall SatNiteSpl because it shocked me (cognitive dissonance: I thought only Yankees thought like that); conversely, I took no note of GimmeBack because it wasn’t offensive, didn’t register.
I don’t actually have any idea what they think; I had just taken the first song at face value when I was a kid.
SatNiteSpl was clearly opposed to the casual violence that these guns enable.
Conversely, Bulllets was about pushing back against oppression.
Which is pretty much the current gun debate as well.
Bulllets was about pushing back against oppression.
I don’t know that to be right or wrong….I just vaguely recall some Billboard angle, the sort of wive’ tales we Southerners trade in….it was “cool” to “know” these things when I was a kid, you know, like: what the Civil War was really about. I have no citation either way.
Life is so strange when its changin’, yes indeed
Well I’ve seen the hard times and the pressure’s been on me
But I keep on workin’ like the workin’ man do
And I’ve got my act together, gonna walk all over you
Gimme back my bullets
Put ’em back where they belong
Ain’t foolin’ around ’cause I done had my fun
Ain’t gonna see no more damage done
Gimme back my bullets
how am I going to sell an album to the children with that title?
Well, Foster the People sold the hell out of Pumped Up Kicks, so you’ve got little to worry about.
Needs to happen. Won’t happen in SF. Which is why they don’t try this shit in the South/Mountain West.
I have noticed a conspicuous absence of antifa in our state. I would not be surprised if they showed up in Baton Rouge or N.O. but nowhere else. I once had a job running a shop. We worked on auto interiors so I started keeping count: 1 in 15 cars did not have a pistol in it.
“Attacked” with Gatorade. Not cool, but let’s not get hysterical. I was expecting stuff torn down and people beaten.
Yes. I was somewhat pissed at the headline when I read the article.
probably didn’t cross a line
these guys were charged with murder, I understand
Legit or alarmism?
https://nypost.com/2018/10/07/study-shows-men-are-running-out-of-sperm/
ZARDOZ interference?
This is what happens when we don’t encourage your young men to read the collected works of Robert E Howard. SMDH.
No shit.
I haven’t run out and its not like I haven’t tried.
Well the throwaway comment on the land tax sure got some traction. But to add keeping with the theme of the post, if we are pragmatic about it there will be no absolute property right for the forseable future, as this seems to be a major objection in the comments. While idelly you would have some sort of sovereign title on your land, not gonna happen
I have found it impossible to predict which parts of my articles get traction and attention. Of course, that is the beauty of publishing and having all of y’all scrutinize the work. Y’all see stuff I dont.
It was a tree farm in Louisiana was it not that was declared a protected habbitat for some frog that did jot even live there?
We almost had open rebellion and a shooting war when the forest service started showing up on private timber land and ordering people not to cut their timber because of the fucking red cockaded woodpecker. Thats no exaggeration. We had several incidences involving firearms. They had to relent on that. That is the stated purpose of national forest. You want to have a pet bird? Go have it on NF land.
What tree huggers dont get is that there are over six billion people in the world. They all want toilet paper, a roof over their head and chairs to sit in.
We had a red cockaded woodpecker hanging around in our woods in MA. We made sure not to mention it to anyone. We also kept a lot of old snags around for the
woodpeckers.
The red cockaded woodpeckers habitat seems to be Army training ranges, ime.
night-riders-of-reelfoot-lake
Here’s one to contemplate: who owns Reelfoot Lake?
And it has some good old forestry-and-guns stuff for Suthen.
These aren’t my people, but I grew up there and were amused by their ways.
I always reuse the same piece of toilet paper 3 times to save the enviroment
Well the throwaway comment on the land tax sure got some traction.
It does a couple of things:
(1) Opens the endless argument about taxation – its necessity and best form.
(2) Allows us to bloviate about the philosophical basis for property ownership.
Mencius Moldbug haz a sad.
Hr’ll get over it. Never was a fan of the neoreactionaries
What. a. surprise.
https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/the-mask-slips/
“shows civilization is at stake” if we don’t… bring Western Civilization to an end.
Which was half of Pie’s point: what is too pragmatic?
I’m reminded of Lincoln’s shuttering newspapers and FDR’s price freezes.
There is nothing pragmatic about the modern enviromentalist.
Environmentalism was never about the environment.
OT but interesting – my kids district news letter just came in the mail. They are hosting a skilled trade career fair for all high-school students next week. The times, they are a changin.
I hope your district isn’t majority minority, because that’s a straight-up dog whistle.
My school district has this too, and it’s a relatively wealthy district. My kid’s looking into phlebotomy, and has a class in biomed sciences.
The times, they are a changin.
Damn straight and about time!
Our high school did their first one ever last year and it was a huge success. A bunch of Spawn’s pals are currently training for the trades.
skilled trade career fair for all high-school students
What is the “fair?” Trade schools seining for students? Firms fishing for interns?
800 Students. $45 million expansion.
https://archive.is/ogvCl/6a8b50b5ed8bf99fedf43d63bf11f11812851993
https://archive.is/ogvCl/f1cb29de80c594be581b5fe897ee09431cf54c68
She can pay the land tax in ehm other ways
I’m at work so I can’t check. Does she have particularly large tracts of land just begging to be taxed?
Let’s just say no one is bickering and arguing over who killed who
https://archive.is/ogvCl/ff11b57e4c4879066a36711076d2e98ac4103e57
https://archive.is/rxngc/2e9be3867705d8c716cc60c5cc984e98ab122d71
To the point of the article: you are right that pragmatism is of course necessary, in the real world, to accomplish positive things, even if it is at times distasteful. Case in point: World War 2. The Allies to an extent compromised their beliefs by working with the Comintern, but this was necessary to defeat the even greater enemy of the Axis. Strengthening the communists was not a good thing, but it was a necessary thing to achieve a good aim. Likewise, political compromises are often necessary, even if the compromise in and of itself is not good, in order to achieve a greater good. Of course the sticking point is that some compromises are too terrible to take, but where that line is drawn is endlessly debatable.
There were three aggressors in World War II, Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union. One of those countries ended up winning the war, successfully seizing all the territory they originally desired when deciding to embark on their war of aggression.
I’ve always thought there is an interesting alt-history tale to be written:
What if we had taken Patton’s advice, and driven the Soviets back to Russia? Could we have (without nuking them)? What would it have looked like? Would we have stuck with our requirement for unconditional surrender, or just return to their pre-war borders? What would the world look like now if the Soviets had never had an Eastern European empire?
There were three aggressors in World War II, Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union. One of those countries ended up winning the war…
To be glib: two out of three ain’t bad.
You are absolutely right that there were three aggressors, and one was allowed to win, but that was the compromise – it would have been impossible to oppose all three at once. In an ideal world it would have been best for all three to have lost, but in the real world that was not really going to happen.
some compromises are too terrible to take, but where that line is drawn is endlessly debatable
Great point that might question this nugget: “working with the Comintern . . .was necessary to defeat the even greater enemy of the Axis.”
We’ll never know, of course; I think it’s not knowable, so maybe it shouldn’t be posited as a supporting example.
Funny how the UK declared war on the Third Reich to defend their ally Poland from dictatorship; good thing Poland didn’t fall to those damned Germans.
good thing Poland didn’t fall to those damned Germans.
To be fair, that latter part wasn’t exactly the UK’s fault. Churchill actually did make Polish independence a sticking point. Roosevelt basically told him to sit down and shut up.
The practicalities were that the Soviets were going to seize control of Eastern Europe anyway, unless we kicked them out by force of arms, so without the appetite to keep the Allied armies marching East, there was nothing to be done for Poland.
I don’t know about that. We only have FDR’s word for that, and he was too busy deep-throating Stalin to say much.
in fairness to Stalin (never thought I’d write that one), the last time anyone went down on me, 27,000,000 of my neighbors didn’t get sacrificed in the process
yes
The point of Britain’s alliance was to save Poland; but, without saving Poland, there was no way to save Poland.
The alliance was inviolate, perpetual, and sincere except in all the cases where it was not.
I’m sure you’re correct.
My point stands all the more: unavoidable wars, hopeless alliances, and Pyrrhic victories comprise the cornucopia of greatness we can expect from some of these pragmatic decisions top men made for us.
We’ll never know, of course; I think it’s not knowable, so maybe it shouldn’t be posited as a supporting example.
While this is true in the strictest sense, as all counterfactuals are ultimately unknowable, the fact that the Comintern did most of the heavy lifting in the fight in the European theater, keeping two-thirds of the German army engaged, while relying heavily on American and UK supplies, makes it seem more than likely to me that assisting the Soviets was the necessary thing to do to win. Had the Germans defeated the Soviets, which could have happened had they run out of supplies, an undistracted German army fueled by soviet oil would have been extremely difficult to defeat.
So you’re saying you want to make me dictator.