Suthenboy is not a credentialed expert. This is just his personal experience, not legal advice. Consult credentialed professionals before attempting any of this.
Some here have asked me about this subject so here it is.
Timber buyers, obviously, want to pay as little as possible for timber. Timber growers want to collect as much as they can for their timber. The nature of timber purchase is speculation. From the time of sale a tree may stand for months before harvest. It may stand for a couple of years. From there it can lay in a yard for a couple of years. From there it may still be a year or more before that lumber lands in The Hyperbole’s hot hands. The buyer is trying to arrive at a price that allows them to make money in a future market. They have to take a chance on, mostly housing starts, years into the future.
*If you want to get an fairly accurate prediction about the economy’s future performance, check the price of timber. Those guys aren’t screwing around, they know what they are doing and they aren’t political. BTW, timber prices on the stump are sky high right now. Must be those pesky Russians.
If you are selling timber you may want to have a professional forester evaluate your timber and give you and estimated value. However, it is hard to know how incestuous a relationship exists between foresters and various buyers. Here is the best way to go about it once you are certain you want to sell your timber. It is tried and true.
- Do some research. Find all of the potential buyers in your area. This will include all of the saw mills, pulp mills and plywood mills. You may also find some timber brokers. It is hard to say how large your area is. Because of fuel cost and highway usage fees the further from your timber a mill is the less they will be willing to pay. Out of courtesy I include everyone inside about 50 miles but I know the best offers will be from those half that far away. Write a letter to each one announcing that you intend to sell your timber in a closed bid auction on a given date and time. Include a survey of your property, directions to and legal description of the property. Include a title search confirming that you are in fact the owner. These can be found at your Clerk of Court’s office. Include a copy of your contract. Invite them to examine the timber at their leisure.
- Contract. You should be able to get a timber sale contract from your local clerk of court easily. Every state has different style and requirements. Get an example at your local courthouse of someone else’s completed sale from the clerk’s office. Just walk right in and tell them what you want, they are glad to help. The contract should include things like access, road building, time limits, damage repair and clean up. Use that contract as a template for your own and adjust the terms to your liking.
Consider things that will increase your price: clean up is expensive. If they have to spend 10K or 20K on labor and gasoline pushing tree tops around, it will be reflected in your price. Those tops will rot away in a couple of years on their own.
Remember, they are speculators. The longer you give them the better off they are. Here, most time limits are 6 months. I give ‘em two years. That will be reflected in your price. Most land will restore itself in a couple of years and bulldozers are damned expensive to operate. That will be reflected in your price. Don’t worry about minor things: Often the cutter will change oil several times and just dump the used oil on the ground. Don’t sweat it. That will be gone in a couple of years on its own.
Lastly, make certain that the contract places liability on either the cutter or the buyer if they cut over the line. Once they crank up the saws you have no control over them so you should have no liability.
If any of this makes you nervous, get a lawyer. There are a lot of good land guys around that will facilitate a sale for a modest fee.
- Clearly mark your lines with paint before the potential buyers inspect it. Most harvesters will not cut the trees with the paint on them. They are considered ‘line trees’ and will be left as future markers. Chose crooked trees, don’t mark veneer quality logs. The buyer wants those. If you are uncertain about those lines you may want to have a survey performed, but that can be expensive. If you are on good or neutral terms with your neighbors it is a good idea to have them accompany you to examine where the lines are before you paint so that you are in agreement.
- If you have any contact with any of the buyers do not discuss money. Do not discuss price. I cannot overemphasize this. If they try to bring it up inform them that you absolutely cannot discuss money until after the bid. If you are seen as someone who tries to manipulate a sealed bid auction no one will touch you. Word will spread and no one will show up at your bid. In fact, you may never be able to sell your timber. You will become persona non-grata. Not acting in good faith will burn you.
- Rent a small conference room at a mid-level hotel. Don’t go expensive, don’t go cheap. You don’t want cracked-out hookers accidentally wandering in while you are opening bids. Bring cinnamon rolls, doughnuts, etc and coffee. Lots of coffee. Most of the buyers that intend to place a bid will RSVP so you should have a good idea how many people you are serving. Hopefully you will be serving at least ten.
- You should have a check-list of everyone you sent an invitation to. Check them off as they arrive. If at the appointed time there are some that did not show ask the room politely if you can wait another few minutes. If you have anyone who cannot wait do not try to accommodate the person who is late.
*At least once the winning bidder showed up about ten minutes late, and they weren’t the winner by just a little bit.
- Collect all of the bids in plain sight of everyone. Open them and read them out loud so that everyone can hear. Just read the numbers and then place the bids out in plain sight on the table. When you have finished, pick the largest bid and announce it and the bidder. Thank everyone for coming. If there are any who don’t have to be anywhere try to engage them in conversation so that you can pick their brain. Ask questions. These guys know the business inside and out.
- The winning bidder will likely have the check on them, already filled out. They will present it to you and you both will sign the sale contract. You should have two copies of the contract to sign.
- Immediately after the sale you want to do two, maybe four things. First go to the bank and deposit the check. Find out how soon the money will be available.
Then go straight to the courthouse and record the contract with the Clerk of Court. Lastly, if the money is available go straight and pay any local, state, or federal tax you owe. Don’t feel flush and think you will do it later. Do it now.
I also recommend, while you are at the bank to open a separate account to reserve some of the money for future property tax, a personal ESCROW. Those taxes are going to come due like the sun will come up. Make sure you have the money when the time comes.
As it turns out maximizing the value of your timber is a lot of work. If you are only going to do it once in your life you want to get it right. I have included as many pointers as I can think of. My father wrote a detailed book on the subject, but I can’t seem to find my copy. It’s buried in a mountain of books. If it turns up I’ll let y’all know and anyone that wants a copy, just ask. I will be happy to share it.
Last bit of advice – There are timber companies and land management companies that purport to manage your timber for you. In return they want exclusive rights to your timber when it comes time to harvest. They will lock you into a contract and thus into a price. NEVER ENTER ONE OF THESE CONTRACTS. They are not crooks. They think it is fair because of the services they provide which might include a survey, but probably not, justifies reducing the sale price. You will end up with a minimum price just short of being legally actionable. DON’T DO IT.
Interesting stuff. I thought about buying timberland as a retirement hedge but land prices in Florida are too high and I don’t want to manage a property in another state.
You will not beat St. Joe Paper in FL. I guarantee. But rental property for retail unless you hope to build a compound.
Awesome article Suthen. This is very helpful for me. I’m going offline for the night, but have this bookmarked to read over again before reaching out to the timber companies.
Ditto.
One caveat, from a lawyer (me) – “Often the cutter will change oil several times and just dump the used oil on the ground. Don’t sweat it. That will be gone in a couple of years on its own.”
NO! You put something in the contract about how no hazardous material or waste oil, antifreeze or anything like that is allowed to be dumped or disposed of on your land. There are State EPAs and Federal offices that are not as blind to this as others. Protect yourself. God, I shivered thinking of someone trying that in CA.
If you have the language in there, do you have to actually enforce it?
Thanks, Suthen, as always a well researched and well done piece of info. I have a some serious timber but don’t really want to sell, since I don’t need the money and it keeps growing anyway. It is good info when the time comes that the trust administrator could have to help determine the value of the property. I always thought one just called the first timber guy in the Yellow Pages and went from there. Good stuff
Maximizing the Value of Your “Timber”
I swab mine in coconunt oil every night before I go to bed. ER….wait…
Excellent article.
Good article.
“If any of this makes you nervous, get a lawyer. There are a lot of good land guys around that will facilitate a sale for a modest fee.”
Also, if it’s a significant amount of money, you might want to speak with an accountant about taxes.
Suthern – I have hickory nuts all over my yard right now. Have you ever baked or roasted them?
There are all kinds of nuts all over Twitter right now.
There are all kinds of people nutting on Winston’s mom right now.
Nüsse
There were a shitload of hickory nuts in our yard when I was a kid, made mowing the lawn a real pain in the ass.
It’s got a taste that reminds me of wild hickory nuts. And did you know many parts of a pine tree are edible?
/Euell Gibbons
+1 bowl of Grape Nuts
Wood.
*narrows gaze*
I love this site. You people live interesting loves and it’s fascinating. Thank you.
Lives. Fuck.
Either works.
I’ve told you all about Jasmine in Singapore, right?
Was that one about sweet days of summer, and Jasmine’s in bloom?
Hey Suthen, how would you recommend taking care of some very large oaks and hickories on my property? There are around 10 of them and the things are 2′ to 3′ in diameter. some of them run 30′ straight up before branching, twisting, or curving.
Obviously, I’m not going to get into the timber business with 10 trees, but it seems an awful waste to pay $10k to have some outfit come in and chop them up into firewood.
If you can get decent boards out of them ask a wood worker if they want to cut them up for their own use. They would probably do it for free, provided they have their own portable sawmill. If no one comes to mind someone at a local mill might know someone. Or if there’s Amish nearby?
Surely someone would buy those. Hell I would if I was close and could do numerous trips with my 18′ trailer. Why do you want them cut?
Too close to the house. They drop so many leaves on the roof that they start to grow stuff on the shingles. Just the branches falling out of some of them would knife through the roof like butter if they fell on the house. Also, a couple of them are sitting where I want to put an attached garage.
I’d try to sell them to a timber outfit, if you have someone close. A buddy of mine had some big black walnut trees like you describe and got thousands a piece for the trees.
Price on walnut was outrageous at the time. Oak and hickory aren’t half the price. But in your yard, they’re going to be easy to get to, which is part of the buyer’s figuring.
I’m in that boat too. I don’t have that big a yard but we have a ton of huge, mature oak, maple, and gum trees.
Interesting stuff Suthen. I own no land with timber due to poor life choices, but much of my now deceased family eked out an existence cutting, moving and selling timber for decades.
What flavor of trees do you mostly deal with? Are you a southern softwood grower or do you do some hard woods too? (Now that is how you euphemism!) If my next plan grows legs, I may want to find a dealer of hickory and such for the smoking of meats. There are a few places that deal in it here but they get a premium due to there is no hickory around these parts and it is all shipped in. I always like to be my own middle man.
I have 3 or 4 Hickory trees. You can have them if you come and get them. Dropping them on my house costs extra.
Check my avatar at # 3. Stuff happens
Hopefully that was the neighbors house.
Unfortunately not but very little damage and I pulled it off with the tractor, replaced about 5-6 shingles is all.
Is there room to fall them away from the house or are there other houses and such? Meaning does it need to be done in stages by a pro tree trimmer with a boom truck and maybe a crane? I have dropped many a tree but never next to a house. Most have gone where I planned, but I have seen even the most experienced guys misjudge a tree. It happens. When it happened to me it didn’t matter because it was in bum fuck and I didn’t park my truck where the mis-judgeded tree fell.
It runs the gamut. Some will for sure need to be taken down in stages. Others should be fine if the cutter can hit a quadrant or a half of the compass.
Is that featured image a JCB loader with a grapple? Wow, you are brave.
How often do you turn over timber?
220, 221… whatever it takes.
Love the Mr Mom reference.
I don’t get it ;_;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=diqQ7gRVfYo
At least 21 times a month for a healthy prostate.
You know the guy who wrote this is a patriarchal shitlord because he thinks he owns the timber and wants to profit off it. It’s like, nature, man. You can’t own nature.
You can’t own nature.-
I can’t because property taxes are too high.
You can’t OWN property, MAN.
Do my orphans could t as property?
Count, fucking auto-correct!
*extinguishes the RobC signal*
Come on Brochett, it’s too late for a Georgism debate tonight!
Curious George 2 is the best. End of debate.
You cannot go against nature
Because when you do
Go against nature
It’s part of nature too
No new tales to tell.
Like if a squirrel built a toxic waste dump?
Great article, Suthun! I miss y’all. I did a 7 hour “what are all the thing we have to do isn’t next 2 weeks?” Meeting. Me: “apparently not finishing any of my tasks while the sun is up! I’m taking a bar break while my computer does shit. I highly recommend Dearborn Brewing if you end up near Ford or The Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. Their Irish Stout is on point.
Don’t tell me what I want!
Shouldn’t there be quotes around “accidentally”?
I’m thinking of Darlene the chick who hits the rig guys on day 4 of their week on-shore. After the fun money is gone. Pass
If you’ve viewed the old home movies of me as a child, you’d understand.
Another Thursday passes, rather uneventuated by a certain, shall we say, celebratory happening, an occurrence to which one might be acclimated, unless, as of late, such a thing had rather unforgivably gone unnoticed, by which I mean a weekly visitation of a certain welcomed appearance, a spirituous visitation, of rather grand proportions, one which might cause the glans to swell, and to constrict ones breeches, ye, unto having to excuse oneself from the proceedings, lest one be impaired.
You can’t rush my art.
My art isn’t for sale.
You’re my beating heart in these dark times.
Please promise me she’s black as darkest Africa.
Will this assuage the pain?
She hurts good.
Fanny Hill? Is that you?
“If you want to get an fairly accurate prediction about the economy’s future performance, check the price of timber.”
Fortunately, the inevitable next round of QE won’t be killing too many trees given it’ll be digital zeros added and not paper currency.
Good article, Suthen. I now can see the forest for the STEVES.
Back in 2011, a tornado ripped through 100 acres owned by my family. My dad owns a timberking 1200 sawmill. It’s small potatoes.
I sawed 10s of thousands of board feet of cedar on that thing after the tornado. The tornado had prematurely de-rooted a thousand or so cedar trees that I duly sawed into usable planks for my dad.
They are still stacked up in the barn. At the time I did all this work, the market was saturated with lumber due to the tornado.
The minus side is that the lumber was valueless. The plus side is that I have built cabinets, shelves, boxes, playhouses, steps, and other things from this stockpile of lumber.
It is what it is, and life goes on.
The hell it is. People are suffering as a result of that tornado. We need an omnibus spending bill to stimulate the economy. If you oppose it, you hate the victims, some of which are minorities which makes you a racist. Arkansas Strong!
Ah contraire. Tornados are creative destruction, in a sense.
Having my house blown away forced me to move in with my girlfriend, who subsequently got pregnant and became my wife. The new responsibility made me more serious about making money, so I upgraded my skill set in order to make more money. I used that newfound ambition and dollars to buy a farm and and a house. I now contribute much more to the economy than I used to.
*not all tornado victims have the same outcome. Therefore. We need tornado victim equality handicappers to curtail the successes of those who have been tornadoed and distribute those those successes to others who didnt succeed. Its only fair.
“forced me to move in with my girlfriend, who subsequently got pregnant”
What an odd way to phrase things.
Forced is probably the wrong word.
More like-
Go move in with my parents, go homeless, rent a motel, or move in with a girl I like.
I took the lath most pleasing to me.
I took the lath most pleasing to me.
Keep your turning talk in the wood shop!
I thought bus crashes caused that.
“Suthenboy is not a credentialed expert. This is just his personal experience, not legal advice. Consult credentialed professionals before attempting any of this.”
Lachowsky is not a credentialed expert, but he can damn sure tell you how to fix a whole bunch of shit. A litigious society abetted by laws in favor of litigants make suthenboy disclaim his expertise.
Great article.
Never been more glad that I have wood.
I’m disappointed I have to borrow someone else’s since I have none of my own.
*Judge Kavinaugh says* You can grab my wood anytime! *serial rapist judge Kavinaugh*
We’re like a week from Kavanaugh gaining his seat on the Supreme Court, and from there, not only will my stock in coat hangers quadruple in value, but I will finally be able to rape freely without fear of repercussion.
Oh, if you haven’t already started drafting your rape team you’re only going to be left with rape kickers. Loser.
STEVE SMITH FREE AGENT, HIM NO HAVE TEAM. HIM IS TEAM!
Good article, Suthen. I don’t have nearly enough land to consider a money making timber harvest, but I do have a few acres in the California Sierra’s. Back when I lived in the PRK, I wanted some land cleared to build a cabin. The cost/benefit analysis from the company determined that they needed to clear two acres to make it profitable. As a result, they got two acres of Pine, Douglas Fir, Cedar and Black Oak. They also took out an area infected with mistletoe. I got an area cleared and they masticated the slash. With the money they made on the harvest, it only cost me a couple thousand dollars to get the job done.
I ended up moving to Idaho and never built the cabin. If anyone’s interested, I have 5 acres for sale in the Tahoe National Forest.
That’s off the 405, right?
Yes, about 500 miles just off the 405.
Do you have it listed on the MLS? Or just off market?
It’s not on the market currently. But I haven’t been on the property in at least 12 years.
Red Letter Media has featured several crappy werewolf movies, the latest Lycan Colony. When I see these I wonder about that weird guy I knew film school who was obsessed with werewolves. I don’t remember if he wrote a script about a werewolf cop and we joked about him writing a script about werewolf fireman, or or if he actually wrote a script about a werewolf fireman, but I’m sure he raped me sometime between 1972 and 2010.
“and bulldozers are damned expensive to operate”
Somewhat related-
I spent 8 hours on Monday attending a class on closed loop hudraulic circuits. It was a good class. I have worked on tons of open loop circuits, and many closed loop circuits as well. However, most of the work I have done on closed loop circuits, I have been lucky with being able to repair as I didnt understand the circuits well enough to really know what I was doing.
Anyway, the class I attended used hudraulic schematics of bulldozers to test our troubleshooting abilities. Bulldozer track drives are all closed loop circuits.
Im happy to say that I did better than anyone in the class at diagnosing problems in bulldozer hydraulics. It was also great to get a good overview and some specific knowledge on a type of hydraulic circuit that I have previously been largely ignorant of.
Kids to the capatilists that employ me, who send me to these knowledge building classes that benefit not only them, but me
Good job finding fake answers to fake questions, you’re now qualified to be called a scientist!
Something I knew intuitively, but never really trusted my knowledge on was related to the function of a hudraulic pump.
Basically, what does a hudraulic pump do? Most think this it created pressure. However, that is not true.
A hydraulic pump creates flow. Pressure is ancillary.
In the manner that a generator creates potential and loads determine amperage, a hydraulic pump creates flow and resistance to that flow creates pressure.
I have always kind of known this, it’s nice to have ones intuition confirmed. It’s nice because that makes one more confident in ones assumptions about a particular system one happens to trying to figure out what is wrong with.
Closed loop hydraulics are cool and once you learn how they work, it’s pretty understandable. Jaws of Life and ladder trucks all function on closed hydraulics. If there’s a problem, look for leaks. If there’s no leaks, it’s most likely a stuck valve or a blockage. Then you look at the power supply and pressure regulators.
Fucking nerds. Let’s talk about some real manly shit, like if relativity affects people moving at faster speeds, are nascar drivers older than they claim to be? If a 15 year old starts racing on his 15th birthday, and 8 years later has sex with a woman born the same day is that statutory rape? These are the questions we now need to grapple with, the supreme court in 80 years could depend on it!
“are nascar drivers older than they claim to be”
No. Younger.
Look at the science denier here! Look at him!
Look,…younger, older–It’s all relative.
/oh, yes; I went there.
How the charge pump fluidizes the system, and how the case drain acts as a make up and cooling system were new concepts to me. It makes perfect sense now that I have seen it. Like you said, cool stuff.
Breaking News: Brett Kavinaugh wrote a rap song about being a serial rapist.
Suthen, love this post. Hope there’s going to more wood talk in the future.
So was busy all day and just catching up on the circus. Holy shit, the death of McCain seems to have awakened Graham from his slumber. From the top rope, and then glancing in Flake’s direction when he says he hopes everyone whose fairmind will [also vote to confirm]. If he went over and broke a cane beating Feinstein into the hospital, I’d send him a replacement.
He also seems realize that the phony ass esteemed colleagues bullshit is all a facade and the opponents across the aisle are just that.
Graham saw that what happened to BK could’ve happened to him. That’s a good thing given the bullshit charges, but it also makes you wonder why this fucking Warhawk can’t put himself in the shoes of people who are on the receiving end drone strike. So, good for him and the tongue lashing he gave the Dems was warranted, but I’m not making the guy my new hero.
Yeah, as happy as I am for this moment, I’m not going to give Graham a bj every day for the rest of his life.
Maybe I’m just too jaded and can’t just appreciate an amazing moment when it comes along.
The one thing that is going to stick with the me the longest is how many people are willing to pay even lipservice to the notion that Ford is telling the truth. Or at least some version of it. “Her” truth. No, the bitch is a fucking liar. She floated some bullshit story for political reasons. And because deep down she knows full well that in her culture, as a professor in a far left enclave, she would be a hero. DNC operatives got a hold of her. They strategized on the best way to use her. They coached her and prepared her for her interview and how to maximize what little appeal she has. The storylines and ways to cover this were floated to the media. She knows this didn’t happen to her. They aren’t fake memories and she isn’t confused about who assaulted her because she was never fucking assaulted. She’s a credentialed, but absolutely mediocre middle aged far left hag with a pathetic, spineless husband who wants to resist.
Notice how little attention is being paid to the other two accusers right now. No woman would make this up (besides the others who we want to sweep under the rug).
Like Gustave, I finally had a chance to watch the end of both BK’s and Ford’s testimonies. That prosecutor the R’s put out there was useless. I’m guessing they simply wanted to avoid bad optics, but disarming yourself so you don’t get shot only works with the Predator.
They’re familiar with the talking points. There’s nothing in Ford’s testimony to even debunk because it’s so vague. I think the only opportunity missed would be to press her on the best friend who doesn’t remember anything about this party or even having met Kavanaugh. They were going to get a highlight reel from her just from the Dems “questioning” of her regardless. Every media outlet’s main story on this has some line early on how she was facing off again an all-male group of Republicans.
The only way to win here was to never let this farce take place to begin with, but fucks like Flake blew that.
The sad thing is that all this is about a cock sucking swamp creature like Kavanaugh. Kind of like the Russian investigation. You end up defending a scumbag like Manafort.
The best friend contradiction should’ve been hammered home. The whole thing just shows me that R’s will do anything to keep their jobs and D’s will do anything to gather power. Sometimes the former ends up accidentally producing a good result, but the latter never does.
I think some obvious questions never got asked by the woman prosecutor. Why did you delay this hearing saying you were afraid to fly, yet you clearly fly all the time, and flew to this hearing? Have you ever been hospitalized in a psychiatric facility? Are you currently taking any medications, especially ones that have the known risk of causing delusions? When had you met Kavanaugh before the party in question? When you say you are 100 percent sure it was Kavanaugh, what were you basing that on, personal knowledge of him, or perhaps someone told you his name? On and on, so many missed opportunities to punch major holes in her credibility.
Did she ever say that, or was that from her lawyers? She didn’t make any statement or appearance prior to today right?
“When had you met Kavanaugh before the party in question?”
Absolutely. That was a big miss.
Remember that the prosecutor isn’t for the masses or the media. She is for the senators. Nothing we think or the media thinks matters at all.
I thought she quietly brought up some important inconsistencies. She’s not there to make a great show.
Actually it seems like the only thing this all hinges on at this point is what Flake thinks. All about Flake’s committee vote. If he votes yes tomorrow, he will also vote yes on Monday. That’s 49. Manchin has signaled yes. So have some key rinos.
I think it hinges on Flake. And he sounded genuinely undecided earlier.
Manchin seems more likely to confirm BK than Flake does.
Flake after today: “They both did well and he offered a defense like you would expect from someone who felt that they were wrongly accused. and she offered compelling testimony as well. But I have to go with what is the standard here. Where is the burden?”
Dunno. I’m annoyed that he is so wishy washy, but i think it’s obvious where the burden is.
I don’t trust the guy one iota. He’s a POS that will do whatever it takes to serve his own purposes. Hopefully he’ll vote yes, but it’s a 50/50 chance IMHO.
Yeah. So flakey.
He sucks, but if he votes yes….
Some red meat for the late night Glibs
https://youtu.be/6IXWqEcs9N0
I’ve got twenty acres of land about 70 miles north of me – needs to be lumbered some day. Some really nice walnut and cherry trees there.