Being a libertarian can be tough. As our logo (I think of it as ours. The founders may be first among equals, but its the participation of the Glibertariat that makes this place amazing.) alludes to some of the misconceptions people have about libertarianism. The public discourse and the education complex don’t discuss the ideas that underlie the philosophy. So how do people arrive at it? I like hearing other people’s stories so I thought I’d share mine.
I grew up a poor black boy in…wait, no, I know the difference between shit and Shinola so that’s another guy. I did grow up in a rural area of N. Carolina and went to a Southern Baptist church. I suppose that had an impact on me. I started out a kid with not much appetite for authority, tons of questions about why, and intolerance for bullshit.
My favorite show was the Dukes of Hazzard. I think that had a big impact on me. I don’t know of any other show on TV that was so anti-authoritarian and so subversive while appearing to be nothing more than country kitsch. The authorities were corrupt, venal, petty and incompetent. Which almost made it a documentary. The Duke family were loving, fun, and had cool cars. And they never meant anyone any harm, even the corrupt government trying to destroy them. I didn’t realize for decades how formative that show was, but it set the stage later.
I grew older and more obstinate. The more I learned, the more questions I asked about why. And the more I realized that most of the authority figures in life didn’t know their ass from a hole in the ground, and either way couldn’t find it with both hands and a map. And with that realization, the more I began to question why they should be able to tell me what to do simply because they had managed to remain breathing. From there to questioning others in authority like politicians and cops wasn’t a huge leap and fortunately, around the time I was 11 I had an experience that helped me make the jump.
In the 5th grade the sad, pathetic nature of bureaucracy became crystal clear to me. We had an assistant principal that all the kids and parents adored. She truly was great with us kids; a good balance of discipline and love. When the principal announced his retirement due to health reasons a temporary principal was put in place while the school board decided on a permanent replacement. Full of nonsense about our form of government and a naive belief in the right of the people impacted to petition the government for redress I started a petition. I sent it around to kids and parents, asking for signatures supporting Mrs. Sandy (the asst. principal) for the principal position. The temp principal who had worked for the system longer and wanted it because of that, despite having spent years trying for a principal position without success, was not pleased. She went so far as to call me into her office for a dressing down and to demand I hand over my ‘stupid little petition’. This did not go well for her when I told my parents about our little meeting and her threats to suspend me if I didn’t comply.
My mom was something of a mama bear; if I was in the right she’d go to the mattresses for me. But woe betide my ass if I didn’t behave well. And the words, “This is bad enough your dad will handle it” struck a kind of liquid terror in my bowels on the few occasions I heard it. Dad was usually the less strict, so if he had to do the disciplining I knew I had seriously fucked up. Anyway, they both had my back and went up to the principal’s office the next morning and had a little come to Jesus meeting with the harridan. I am still not privy to the exact conversation, but she steered clear of me from then on out.
It was at the next school board meeting where I had that lesson about petty bureaucrats reinforced even harder and cemented my hatred of those pathetic types. The hiring of a permanent principal was on the list, I showed up with my petition and duly handed it in to the board. I was interviewed by the local newspaper for a front page story. And thus the lessons.
First, despite the petition having about 70% of the parents and students at the school signing on, Mrs. Sandy was passed over for the bitchy-bitch. The board accepted the petition, but they didn’t even look it over or read it. I mean, after all, what do the peasants and their children know about education?
Second, the news reporter got my quote wrong in the front page article the next day. They quoted an 11 year old wrong, changing the meaning of my words. I mean, this adult had one fucking job in a small town newspaper and they couldn’t even accurately write down what I said. That also made me pretty furious and long before the The Orange Cheeto turned the phrase around on them, cemented the idea of Fake News in my head and further stoked the fires of my skepticism.
By the time I hit college I’d had seven more years to shape my philosophy of politics and negative experiences of people in power. I labeled myself a conservative. But my religious indoctrination had also created a disgust with hypocrisy and a desire for clear, moral consistency so I often found myself at odds with certain conservative opinions. I’d also started reading Heinlein.
It is a little hard to articulate how big of an impact Heinlein’s novels had on me in regard to political thought. While it was never stated outright in that fashion, the NAP was there in his work, presented questions of moral agency, letting others live their lives as they see fit so long as they don’t offer your violence. (And the idea of non-monogamy, but that is a different post). It gave me a springboard to start looking for other works to help my burgeoning interest in a political ideology based on liberty and personal autonomy.
The final piece was a principled lefty prof, my adviser. In an age of ‘speech is violence’, no platforming, and all the rest of the Ctrl Left totalitarianism, it sounds odd that a lefty prof might recommend such kulaks and wreckers as HL Mencken, Rothbard, Milton Friedman, FA Hayek, and the like to a student discovering his politics seems unimaginable. But it happened. Because Mr. Collins was a liberal, but he was also a man who felt he had a duty to his students, and who took the goal of educating his students into thinking for themselves quite seriously.
I can’t claim I was completely reasoned into my thoughts on politics and libertarianism, but those are some of the sources that helped shape my thinking as I grew up. That’s how a corny country show from the ’80s, a petty bureaucrat, an incompetent reporter, a science fiction author, and a lefty professor helped me to develop my politics and outlook on life.
What’s your story?
I was one of those who was always sorta libertarianish but didn’t know it. My politics since I’ve been aware of them has been a non-socon republican. A number of years ago I came across TOS surfing the web. I was now able to put a name to my politics and even a set of principles. I still feel I’m more classical liberal but I’m not ashamed to call myself a libertarian as well.
What’s your story?
Well, I was gonna quote The Jerk, but you stomped the shit out of that idea in the second paragraph!
I enjoyed your story. I am curious, though, how in the hell Mr. Collins took completely missed the messages of the very people he recommended to you?
Great essay!
Thank you!
We had some conversations about it, and his critique boiled down to thinking that there were people who couldn’t fend for themselves and that we were prosperous enough to suffer some drag on the system in the form of gov’t help. I imagine he’d be considered a Alt-Right Nazi by modern lefists at this point.
“My mom was something of a mama bear”
My youngest son describes me as a mama bear – “She lets her cubs roam free, but will take the head off anyone who messes with them.”
Last night my 12yo tax deduction told me he appreciated that we let him run wild. Most of his friends’ parents barely let their kids walk home from the bus stop.
Exactly that. I think that will help build a resilient capable kid. We had both freedom and responsibility and the more we accepted of the later, the more of the former we were granted.
BTW – great piece, thank you for sharing!
You’re welcome.
Fucking el-hi public schools. “I’m young, feel great and life seems good”. “Sit your ass in this chair for 8 hours and STFU.”
My family background is kind of odd – my grandparents were from the kind of NYC ethnic backgrounds that were traditionally Democrats (working class Irish and Italians of the early 20th century) yet they were all Republicans. So I was raised in a Republican household, though one much more inclined towards 1980s budget hawk Republicanism than Moral Majority type SoConism. I pretty much assumed that as my own point of view, although I’ve always had a strong stubborn streak when it came to authority figures who didn’t raise me (loved my mom and dad, hated most of my schoolteachers). I think the first seeds were planted when Walter Williams spoke at my high school in the early ’90s and I interviewed him for the school paper. The local rag (a pre-Hinkle Times-Dispatch) carried his columns from time to time, and I thought I had him pegged as “one of us”, a conservative. Dr. Williams was having none of that – he set me straight from the beginning. “I’m no conservative – I’m a radical” he told me. “You’ll hear a lot of Republican politicians say ‘taxation is legalized theft’, but none of them mean it. Well, I say it and I mean every bit of it!” Huh. Not quite what I was expecting! What he said resonated with me, but I can’t say it really changed me at the time. To me, libertarianism was simply a flavor of Republicanism, and not one that conflicted with the archetypal mom ‘n apple pie type conservatism of my upbringing.
It was the W years that made me re-examine my beliefs. I remember watching the 2000 election night coverage with my dad. Neither of us had been Bush fans – I voted for Steve Forbes in the California primary before moving back to Virginia that fall – but hell, we were just damned glad that Gore lost. In a prescient moment, though, Dad told me “Well, now we see if the Republican Party is full of shit or if they mean anything they say. They have both houses and the presidency now.” As we all know….yeah, they were full of shit. Limited government was nothing more than a slogan. A party that had railed against Clintonian nation-building in the 1990s now wanted to invade the entire Middle East and set up supposed democracies. I was a big Iraq War booster in the early years, but by the time I was sent there myself in 2005 I was wondering “What the fuck are we still here for?” Publicly, I still waved the pom-poms, but I really couldn’t see what the point of it was and, all the while, the federal government kept burning through money like a degenerate gambler on a weekend bender at Caesar’s Palace. I realized that, with a few individual exceptions, that politicians were simply different flavors of the same shit. At this point, I’ve accepted that movements towards greater liberty will be minor and fleeting. From a political standpoint, I consider myself primarily an anti-prog. I have little interest in voting for most Republicans, and I can never envision any scenario where I vote for a Democrat.
And I was a huge Dukes of Hazzard fan as a kid, too. I’m proud to admit that the first crush of my young life was Daisy Duke.
Christ, I’m a long-winded blowhard, aren’t I?
It’s very good…thanks. I love the flow of the logic and agree with most of what you wrote.
Nah, a little background helps. A lot of the military guys I meet here have a somewhat libertarianish streak. Uh, except for the navy guys. I’ve met quite a few woke ones. Just a bad sample set, I wonder.
Don’t be too hard on them. Like most in the LGBTQ movement, they’ve all been heavily influenced by the Big Gay agenda.
I work with several old Naval Officers and all are conservative. They are of my generation so Cold Warriors before the PC indoctrination.
Conversely, they were still part of the generation this fellow was singing about.
The Navy let them use one of their ships to film that.
I wonder if the Korean War Vets running the Navy back then understood who the Village People were.
“Nah, a little background helps. A lot of the military guys I meet here have a somewhat libertarianish streak. Uh, except for the navy guys. I’ve met quite a few woke ones. Just a bad sample set, I wonder.”
The new NAVY is all woke. These fuckers have had a couple of multi-billion dollar destroyers and a multi-billion dollar cruiser, all equipped with the most advanced and state of the art navigation systems, run into other shipping or reefs, all because the sailors manning the deck were better trained in the PC nonsense congress has mandated they be hammered with while not having completed their ocean going and navigation requirements. Note that in every one of these cases the woke NAVY leadership chose to throw the commanding officer under the bus as a sacrifice to the crocodiles, while not only letting the culprits off easy, but giving them cover.
You brainwash enough people with woke stupidity, and a lot of them will end up being woke idiots.
That is kind funny because the Air Force has largely been taken over by Christian Fundamentalist Socons
Either way it would make life crap IMO and I am glad that is far in the past.
Nope. Fascinating story. And I’m there with you about Daisy. I got in so much trouble in 2nd grade for saying I’d like to watch her shower.
I was a big Reagan fan in the 80’s – first guy I ever heard talk about government sucking and the remedy being a lot less of it. HW Bush was the one who proved to me that the moderate GOP fucks were absolute liars. W, Hasternet and the rest just made sure there were no doubts.
Same for me Drake. Having lived across the globe and seen the wonders of socialism in action, I ended up conservative and loved Reagan precisely because he pointed out the failures of government (and especially big government). Bush senior pissed me off royally caving in the tax and spenders, and his son was the one that convinced me that the difference between team blue and team red was only the degree of insanity between the nanny staters they all were. I am sad to say that every election I voted in since Reagan was one where I voted against someone rather than for someone. Trump to me is the result of that feeling that you are always being forced to choose between the lesser of the establishment’s evils, and despite his crazy ways simply appealed as an outsider. The fact that the alternative was the criminal Hillary which I was told had to be given the office because she had a vag, would have not changed my choice to vote against her even if the option was Charlie Manson instead of Trump. Manson is less evil and vindictive, and certainly less crazy, than Shillary.
If you listen to Ed Rollins, HW didn’t cave in. He had absolutely no intention of keeping that promise.
Yeah, but some people thought the guy was honest when he told us too read his lips. live and learn I guess.
tl;dr : Laura Ingalls Wilder
I will have to read her stuff. The only thing I know about her is the vague memories of Little House on the Prairie TV show.
The whole family would gather round the tv when that came on. Mom, dad and the six kids. One time a old woman from our church stopped by on an errand and mom invited her in to watch Little House with us. Opening scene starts and the little girls start running down the hill. When the last daughter gets halfway down the hill, all six of us kids makes the sound of a rifle cocking. Right before she trips and falls, “Blam! Blam!” we let loose a barrage of imaginary fire. Judging by the expression on the church lady’s face, not all families have the same tradition.
My mom was a “purist,” meaning, she was a devotee of the books and couldn’t stand the show, so we weren’t allowed to watch it. I’ve never seen one episode. She was so cute.
Grew up not too far from it. Never read the books. Try the imaginary rifle shot. Kinda fun.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MawR-tA61dM
This is easily my favorite glibertarians comment of all time. Every article should end with that.
😀
Thanks for sharing…pretty much the same way I came along, only my formation was the most extreme, independent, removed, backwoods hillbilly version you can imagine and still have air-conditioning (um, since I was eight, anyways).
Funny thing about Primitive Baptists: I was raised to think that the Southern Convention was somewhere between silly and evil/papist; our congregational notion was more where two are gathered in His name than a tall building in ATL taking dues so that your name could stay on the list. I’m not a religious man, but the prerogative to figure things out for yourself instead of deferring to so much as a pastor still carries me; I’ll always be a just read your Bible kind of guy and shy away from affiliations and professions of faith or loyalty.
I did grow up Dukes of Hazzard. We rebuilt huge engines and stuffed them into all kinds of inappropriate chassis, raced from one end of the county to the other, always had guns and were always coming up with shooting challenges. My sister sold car parts and can slap a mechanical fuel pump on in 20 minutes; she can probably outshoot half the guys reading this. I EDC, and I recommend you do as well.
I loved watching Buckley as a kid: his artistic, historical, and mythological metaphors were brilliantly apt, but his self-sanctifying reactionary world policeman act always gave me pause. Before I found the authoritarian/libertarian axis, I could never figure out why some conservatives wanted to tell me how to live; even when I agree that a certain lifestyle is best, I have zero interest in regulating the private behavior of others…that always seems so very unAmerican. The Reagan-Falwell axis so thoroughly creeped me out that I never recovered. So I never became a Republican….again: not much of a joiner. My own behavior is incredibly conservative fiscally and socially, but I think America is the place where everyone gets to choose the way in which he goes to hell.
I look for principled folk, and this website is the only place that remotely suits me; I was fairly depressed for months as TOS fell apart…until I finally figured out where the reasonable debate had landed. I would rather get kicked in the teeth daily on Glib than be the king of TOS.
I’m just here for the chicks.
Chicks??
I’m patient.
So I never became a Republican….again: not much of a joiner. My own behavior is incredibly conservative fiscally and socially, but I think America is the place where everyone gets to choose the way in which he goes to hell.
I hear you. I’m fiscally conservative, not so much socially as I’ve shared in some ways. But absolutely agree on America being the place where you get to choose how you go to hell. That was one of the ways I parted from SoCons. I also think your point about the religious idea of figuring it out for yourself with just you, God, and the Bible had an impact. Our preachers and sunday school teachers were very much advocates of that. Sort of anti-authoritarian authority figures.
Hihn isn’t going to give that position up easily, anyway.
*snicker*
*BULLY*
*applauds*
Excellent piece. Thanks for sharing. Other people’s stories of their paths to enlightenment are fascinating.
Grew up in what used to be the Republican part of Massachusetts. My parents and one set of grandparents in particular were kind of Waspy so I was trained to view the Kennedy’s as trash and never saw a reason to update that opinion.
Liked Reagan, hated the Bushes. Went to business school and was immersed in students and professors who viewed government as parasitic morons. I enjoyed the hell out of Rush Limbaugh’s TV show in the early 90’s. He was hilarious while making his points against big government. Never did get into his radio show, might be my short attention span.
Gradually migrated towards libertarianism although I never went all-in on some things they preach at Reason like open borders.
Yeah, I’d say the largest slice of my world view is libertarian, but I’m not quite a doctrinaire libertarian. I’m not for open borders. I am for a powerful military (though I believe in shining a light on the den of scum and villainy that is the Pentagon and am against foreign adventurism). I think abortion is horrifying and would be in favor of a ban (although that should be a state by state decision).
I suppose the thing I’d most like to see is a devolution of power from the federal government to the states. Let there be progtopia states and yokeltarian states, and people will sort themselves accordingly.
I’m not for open borders. I am for a powerful military (though I believe in shining a light on the den of scum and villainy that is the Pentagon and am against foreign adventurism)
Seconded.
I’m not for open borders. I am for a powerful military (though I believe in shining a light on the den of scum and villainy that is the Pentagon and am against foreign adventurism). I think abortion is horrifying and would be in favor of a ban (although that should be a state by state decision).
Cosigned on all the above points.
1980. I followed John Anderson’s bid to become president. I thought he made a lot of sense compare to Reagan.
One day, I happened on some version of the Nolan Chart. Which lead me to Ed Clark, who made way more sense than Anderson.
I’ve held my nose and voted for the LP presidential candidate ever sense.
I voted for Bush in 1988, in my first Prez election. That was the last time I voted for anyone who finished top two and the only vote I regret. I mean, I am not happy with voting for Barr or Weld, but I don’t regret it.
Same here, except for the Nolan chart. I have voted LP since 1984, and was a dues-paying Party member until 2000. After the Harry Browne episode I stopped giving them money. Been a reason subscriber since 1991 or 92; I remember when TOS first launched.
I used to subscribe to Liberty as well until it went fully online several years ago. Since then the same four people write all the articles. I still check in every so often, but am usually disappointed.
I voted for Barr as well. Then I went home and took a long shower.
I was never a Dukes fan. Not that I have any particular objection to Country Kitsch. I watched Hee Haw on a fairly regular basis.
My story isn’t too dissimilar to yours, including the Southern Baptist background, although replace Heinlein with CS Lewis.
I mean, I read Heinlein too, but it wasn’t the big influence on my thought process like Lewis.
I called myself a conservative in college, but I wasn’t really one.
Nice article, thank you.
I’m not sure how I came about to my current way of thinking. But my parents had a large part in it.
I remember a lot of
“The world doesn’t owe you anything.”
“Taking responsibility for yourself means the good and the bad.”
“Before you go about fixing other people’s problems, fix your own.”
I was a fan of 80’s “Better Dead Than Red” crap. Rambo, Red Dawn, Blue Thunder, etc… along with prog rock and new wave. So I don’t know what that says about me now. Probably nothing good.
I got from my Mom a lot of “Just because it is legal, doesn’t me YOU are allowed to do it” which I someone perverted into “We don’t need no stinkin’ laws to know what is right or wrong.”
I like that interpretation.
I think a large part of it was the realization that my parents came from nothing, like Appalachian rock farmer nothing. Through hard work, they made a good life for themselves and their children.
^^^ this
Maybe that’s why I agree with you a lot….I got there the same way. I hear everyone saying life is impossible, government is central. But I see my folks (Dad didn’t finish HS) just gut it out, make it happen, and even keep back two bits out of every buck for the bank…..glad to do it and never complained the first time.
American is a gold mine of opportunity….if only we can keep the wackos from gumming up the gears.
Man can i relate to this. both my parents grew up as kids in a mill village in the South. Both my grand fathers had alcohol issues that turned my parents into tee-totalers. My dad was supporting his parents at 16. He and mom went from flat out poor to solidly middle class by the time I was hitting college so they had a good example that you can succeed here regardless of your background.
somehow, and I am not posting too fast.
Oh yeah – Never read an Ayn Rand novel, but read lot’s of Robert Heinlein which really got to me.
Grew up near a cemetery full of Revolutionary War Vets and Minutemen and down the street from the lady who wrote Johnny Tremain. My Dad had all the Kenneth Roberts books like Arundel and Rabble in Arms.
Fantasies of shooing statist assholes started at an early age for me.
Lots of RAH for me plus the W presidency pushed me from regular old Republican to libertarian.
I took the liberal > conservative> libertarian path which I think is pretty common.
I grew up in the northwest part of Indiana, which is mostly blue collar and solid Dem. I’ve always been into art and music so in high school, I was in the lefty “free Nelson Mandela” crowd, though I wasn’t too serious about it. In college I took art lessons in the back of an art store. We’d have the radio on, and some of the senior citizen students listened to Rush Limbaugh. I’d never heard of anything like that before, but it struck a chord with me. I think it was because I was born with a disability, and I often felt like I had to prove myself, and I was often rebelling against my overprotective parents. So I liked all this talk of personal responsibility and freedom.
Years later, when the Internet became a thing, I somehow found Ron Paul, then some John Stossel articles (I really liked him from the 20/20 TV show), which let me to TOS, and then of course to here, and my thinking evolved accordingly. To this day I still despise overprotective and condescending people.
good read.
i didn’t discover Heinlein until after that movie came out. i have to re-read his stuff now to determine when it’s appropriate to pass along to my progeny.
Mostly the juveniles should be all good. Then let them pick up the other stuff from the shelf in the teens without explicitly allowing or disallowing it. Let them think they are getting one over on you.
Podkayne of Mars is youth-appropriate. Starship Troopers and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are also excellent early reads. I post-poned anything sexual until there was a comfort level – our household was quite open about such issues so I actually told my boys “X book is very sexual – so be prepared” and let them decide for themselves.
I was non political for a good chunk of my life. Descendent of immigrant businesspeople so raised with a healthy appreciation for the country but not the government. Punk rock was my groove, but their commie politics bugged me (looking at you, Strummer). My parents are sweet, well intentioned proggies. I worked a real job during college and didn’t live on campus, so missed most of the silliness. The Greenpeace chicks were pretty, though.
Owning businesses really started focusing my unhappiness with Leviathan. Over time I found AofS, Reason and other places of discontent. Years later, I like the people here more than most in the Real World.
Not a True Scotsman, but I’m close.
I got into punk rock mainly through the Misfits, who were completely apolitical, and the Ramones, who had balance between Joey on the left and Johnny on the right.
Grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh, being taught a reverence for the principles of the founding. However, I was a little rule follower, mainly because my parents had no mercy when I challenged their authority. Good parents, but definitely ran a tight ship.
After a few encounters with the local HOA and a few years hanging out with the punks at school, I was beginning to lean libertarian by the end of high school.
I remember doing an unscientific study of media bias in my senior year of high school (2005/06), by comparing the coverage of certain news stories on the various news networks websites. I compared on an article by article basis (all approx the same, which makes sense given AP and Reuters), and also on a biased word basis (chose an a set of news stories in common across all of the networks and counted the number of conservative biased words and the number of prog biased words. The outcome was about what you’d expect, with CNN moving hard to the left over the intervening years.
Anyway, my first nascent truly libertarian thought was in the run up to the ’08 election. The Republicans were going SoCon over gay marriage, and I remarked to my friend “does anybody actually care about this?” He responded that it must be a generational thing.
College is really where I evolved into a libertarian. The 08 election and having to hold my nose for McCain put me off of the GOP, and the consistent cow towing of the conservatives to the socon segment put a bad taste in my mouth. I tended to be a Mitch Daniels republican, putting social issues aside in order to make progress on economic issues.
It was you goons who took me from discontented conservative to conservatarian to libertarianish. I lurked at TOS starting around 08, and started occasionally commenting in 2010 or so.
You can say that again Trashy.
Maybe I will! (damn Squirrels)
What I love is all of us here have pretty different politics, but with a similar moral core of leaving each other alone. I doubt ten glibs could ever form a coherent platform, and that indicates to me we’re doing something right here.
As I’ve said before, I always was libertarianish as long as I can remember; but things that helped explain to others came along as I got older. One of my favorites was Penn and Teller’s Bullshit, and of course going back and watching Milton Freedman once youtube was around making easier to find all that stuff; and then I stumbled on a grotesque hive mind hidden away on a corner of the Reason website called Hit n Run.
Was your handle to same at TOS?
Once registration was implemented I think so.
I changed a couple of times because there were too many Spooner derivations floating around. Mainly only on am lynx so I missed you.
I mostly lurked, and when I did comment it seemed like only the trolls ever responded to me.
My current handle has its origins in a long-ago thread involving Lefiti. I used to use my real name (which isn’t hard to find) but went to a pseudonym in 2009 when I had a position where I had to speak for my university fairly regularly. I didn’t want anyone to confuse my contrarian snark with official policies or positions.
I contracted libertarianism from a particularly virulent meme, and never recovered. This is why hate speech must be treated like a public health epidemic, to protect vulnerable minds from communicable ideologies.
was it the drug-resistant super strain of gliborea? it never stops burning.
A raging case of Nut Punch.
was it the Thomas Kelly murder in Fullerton?
Thomas Kelly is BLM fucking pisses me off.
* is why
yes. makes sense now.
BLM?
Thomas Kelly was the homeless dude that the cops beat to death.
Grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh, being taught a reverence for the principles of the founding. However, I was a little rule follower, mainly because my parents had no mercy when I challenged their authority. Good parents, but definitely ran a tight ship.
After a few encounters with the local HOA and a few years hanging out with the punks at school, I was beginning to lean libertarian by the end of high school.
I remember doing an unscientific study of media bias in my senior year of high school (2005/06), by comparing the coverage of certain news stories on the various news networks websites. I compared on an article by article basis (all approx the same, which makes sense given AP and Reuters), and also on a biased word basis (chose an a set of news stories in common across all of the networks and counted the number of conservative biased words and the number of prog biased words. The outcome was about what you’d expect, with CNN moving hard to the left over the intervening years.
Anyway, my first nascent truly libertarian thought was in the run up to the ’08 election. The Republicans were going SoCon over gay marriage, and I remarked to my friend “does anybody actually care about this?” He responded that it must be a generational thing.
College is really where I evolved into a libertarian. The 08 election and having to hold my nose for McCain put me off of the GOP, and the consistent cow towing of the conservatives to the socon segment put a bad taste in my mouth. I tended to be a Mitch Daniels republican, putting social issues aside in order to make progress on economic issues.
It was two things that took me from discontented conservative to conservatarian to libertarianish. First, my return to faith guided my change in approach to the social issues. Second, you goons helped it along. I lurked at TOS starting around 08, and started occasionally commenting in 2010 or so.
tl;dr : Laura Ingalls Wilder
I find your story to be problematic
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/06/27/laura-ingalls-wilder-book-award-little-house-prairie-racist-column/734103002/
I actually don’t have too much of a problem with that column. The writer isn’t screaming “BAN” over and over again, and her ending “But let’s encourage critical thinking, not purging. ” would be a great lesson for the wokables to learn.
I was referring more to the controversy than the article
How did I get to libertarianism?
Well I started out a conservative growing up in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts. My parents started off poor and uneducated, my mother graduated High School but never wanted to be anything more than Donna Reed and my Father dropped out in 9th grade. However both were intelligent and entrepreneurial and by the time I was in High School they owned their own electronics business and my Father could walk into pretty much any bank and walk out with $100k Loan with nothing more than his signature for collateral. Politically I don’t think either really had any opinions before they started a business but being small business owners they became Reganite Republicans.
I grew up being taught self reliance, hard work, treating everyone fairly as an individual, and actually trying to help people improve themselves.
Personally I was the weird kid who never quite fit in anywhere. I was a geek who read everything voraciously, a huge sci fi fan and caught the D&D bug very shortly after it came out. My parents being anti intellectual never knew what they should get me to read but one of my Aunts was a hippie and only about 10 years older than me so when I was 12 she sent me a care package that included a bunch of books from Authors like Huxley, Orwell, and Tolkien. As a result by the time I was in High School I was in a position where I was generally smarter and more knowledgeable that just about every teacher I encountered and being raised right wing in a hard left state gave me a pretty dim view of the authority figures who were peddling narratives that I knew to be false. Just one example of which was having to explain to my 8th grade science teacher the differences between an atom bomb and a nuclear power plant and why the nuke plant could not explode in the same way an atom bomb does after he tried to go on a rant about why it was important for us to protest the Seabrook Nuke plant. He literally thought a nuclear power plant worked by setting off mini a-bombs.
That said my parents also had no religious beliefs whatsoever. My father had been excommunicated from the Catholic church for remarrying after divorce (just before Vatican 2.0 made that kosher) and I am not sure if my mother had ever set foot in a church for anything but a wedding or a funeral. That said one day some folks from a new church came by and offered to pick us 3 kids up on a bus, take us to Sunday School and bring us back when it was done. Who were my parents to pass up 4 hours of free babysitting on s Sunday morning? So all of a sudden it became important that we get some religious education. So from about the time I was 10 through 16ish I attended a Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Church, and for a long time I REALLY believed that stuff and worked really hard to get my parents to start going to church and “save their souls”. Then around the time I was 15 the pastor at the church started getting involved in the early versions of the culture war and went on weeks long sprees preaching against the evils of Rock and Roll, especially with the irresistible danger of Backward Masking. Another favorite subject of his to preach against was Dungeons and Dragons. In the course of a few weeks we had sermons where he basically said that the post hypnotic suggeston of backward masking was impossible to resist and held up a Players Handbook and described how in it players were required to pledge themselves to one of 12 demonic lords.
Minor problem, I had actually read a fair amount about brainwashing techniques and knew that there was no evidence that backwards masking (or any other subliminal messaging technique) had any impact on anything at all and well as a D&D player I knew he was flat out lying about the contents of the players handbook.
All of the above left me with a strong right wing grounding but very skeptical of authority. Then I joined the military, the US Chair Force to be specific.
While in I discovered Heinlein at the Base Exchange. I won’t say he convinced me or changed my views but he gave me a stronger framework for articulating what I already believed and dealing with the military bureaucracy on a day in and day out basis pushed me over the edge to the point that by the time I got out I was a full fledged libertarian.
I remember the backwards masking and D&D scares. My parents rolled their eyes and pointed out even preachers could be wrong. I remember reading Mike Warnke’s “The Satan Seller” and calling bullshit from the get go as that was all part of the Satanic Panic at the time.
Hell, I had a nun in the 90’s tell me that D&D was satanic. I’ve even had discussions with people handing out Jack Chick tracts outside of bars… they never had Dark Dungeons.
I never understood the D&D scare of the 80s and 90s. It was people that had no freaking clue what that stuff was all about assuming that people that got together in basements to play that stuff actually went on to worship whatever entities were in the monster manual or the deities & demigods compendiums. Cthulhu for prez in 2020!
Most of the D&D players I knew were NNNNEERRDDSSS – including myself. I had some great times playing those games, along with Car Wars and Battletech, to name a few. It was the fantasy and pure escapism that we enjoyed, especially when you’re living in Dullsville.
So true. We also saw the Deities & Demigods books as great big manuals of things to kill so we could take their shit.
Car Wars was awesome. And I remember playing the TMNT RPG that Palladium books put out too.
“So true. We also saw the Deities & Demigods books as great big manuals of things to kill so we could take their shit.”
Heh, weak DM there man. What this did remind me of was that I read an article where the person objected to D&D on the grounds it encouraged people to go out and kill others for their shit. I actually followed along enraptured and wondering if the author might not have a case there and I should be more cognizant of this potential pitfall until I hit the section where the author claimed the game was just another of the many signs of the evils of capitalism and the answer was more marxism. Cause good old marxists didn’t for example decide to keep the entire eastern European block under their yoke, using the people and the economies as their personal loot dungeons, or kill off the rich to take their shit evah.
Fucking morons.
There were two brothers in my D&D group who were absolutely forbidden from playing D&D by their Jehovah’s Witness mom. I remember her calling our house and lecturing me on it, lecturing my mom on it, then coming over and talking to my mom about it in person. She was okay with science fiction RPGs, but any games involving “magic” were just like Ouiji boards and were going to summon demons or some crap.
Those Jehovah witnesses are something. I had one is school with me that got reprimanded because his friends at school bought him lunch on his birthday one time. Then there was the 2 ladies that bugged me for almost 3 months every Sunday trying to tell me about Jesus. They quit coming around when i opened the door in my birthday suit…
I remember my Dad yelling at me not to wreck his records and needle running them backwards.
Liked Ayn Rand, but the one that kicked me upside the head was Anatomy of the State by Rothbard. No more conservatism for me after that mind melt.
Mostly, I started toward libertarianism due to stuff I learned through my Dad. He moonlighted in the OS&D (Overs, Shorts & Damaged) business for a lot of the time I was growing up. He’d have me do work for him (I still remember washing cans of soda in our garage) and would pay me in merchandise. He would sell some of the product at flea markets and I would sell what I’d gotten paid with there (he sold soda, but I sold iced cans of soda, for example). I was the much youngest of my siblings, so I sort of grew up at the kitchen table hearing my dad talk to his friends about investments he’d made with the profits. The long and short of it was that I sort of got an education in economics at the grass roots level. In high school, I came in third in the state in a competition in economics without having taken an economics course. When I eventually did take a course, the teacher admitted to my mother that I knew the topic better than him. As a result, a lot of the things that are sort of integral to libertarianism, trade-offs, no free lunches, subjective value, were things that I’d grown to understand on an intuitive level.
As you can probably have guessed by now, I was pretty much a nerd in high school and certainly wasn’t part of the popular crowd (I still appreciate my father’s advice about that, “You’re just passing though”). In that role, I pretty quickly learned that “we” usually meant “me” it came to doing any work and “the other people” when it came time to enjoy the consequences. In addition, because I wasn’t terribly popular, I never picked up the habit of paying undue deference to other people’s estimation of things. “Everybody knows” and “I’m sure you will agree” never really got to be particularly powerful arguments with me.
Roughly, by the time I left for college, I was pretty much a libertarian.
I must have been born one. I never came to being liberty minded. I was always that way. My instinct was always ‘who the fuck are you? Piss off.’ to anyone that thought they knew better than I did was I should do.
“The authorities were corrupt, venal, petty and incompetent.” —>Bullseye.
My first real political thoughts were of course shaped by my parents, Mom from rural Pennsylvania, and Dad from urban Cleveland (both of them from from families with 8 kids). Both of them were Republican (Dad much more then Mom), so that’s how I was brought up. We grew up in a suburb, which was still half forests and undeveloped lots, and my sister and I were both sent to Catholic school (where Mom was a teacher). Now that I’m older, I have a lot more sympathy for my parents then I did when I was a kid. I was a “special” and “gifted” kid who taught himself to read at the age of 3, and read everything I could get my hands on. The first questioning of the Republican beliefs came from Bloom County, which is still unique for a comic strip that touches on politics by ripping on all of the parties. As I got older, my Dad wanted to try to keep an eye on what I was reading, and my Mom’s response was, “Can you keep up with him?’
It wasn’t until High School that I really started butting heads with the authorities (specifically the teachers). This school catered to the better off families, with some hardship allowances. Most of the teachers were on the far left side of the political spectrum, while the student body tended towards the right. This lead to some… interesting dynamics between the students and the teachers. There were a group of students who wore black armbands and made dollar bills into ribbons when Clinton was elected, which pissed the teachers off to no end. Through all of this, I would listen to Rush (as would my Dad), read the books, and try to find more reading material. After the nuns and their hypocrisy drove me away from the Catholic Church, I started re-examining some of the more so-con beliefs that had come along with my upbringing. Finding no good basis for most of them, they got tossed off, as did the Republican label. That one teacher who tended towards the right I mentioned earlier? He’s the one who mentioned the concept of libertarians in a history/civilization (don’t remember which it was now) class. The entire idea made sense to me, and I adopted the label.
After that, I had a friend recommend Rand (the Fountainhead, meh), found Heinlein and Pratchett, as well as Bastiat and Hayek. A couple years after that, I kept seeing articles from this place called Reason…
I liked your tale.
For me, I grew up with two liberal journalists as parents. They were the kind of liberal you don’t see much of anymore. Bother we’re Catholic and sincere in their beliefs. Although my mom would never vote for a Republican, she was strongly pro life. They hated racism, and loved free speech.
My mom would write down quotes from other journalists and hang them on her refrigerator. One of them was by that wonderful bastard H. L. Menkin. “Freedom of the press is limited to those that own one”. For years I would ponder it while getting milk for my cornflakes.
I went to a strange little school for people too poor for prep school, too undisciplined for a high standard school, and too bored by public school. They had a great library. Each day I would pour through magazines. I read both the Nation and National Review. I disagreed with everything Buckley said, but I loved the way he wrote. It exposed me to ideas I had never pondered.
Still, I think the only influence that really mattered was from those who helped to teach me to hate bullies of any sort. As a kid, nothing would make my fists fly faster than seeing someone get picked on by the mob. I hated systems that gave bullies power to abuse. I hated people who tried to get me to shut up.
Still do. I’m always rooting for the underdog and there’s no bigger underdog than the individual in a society.
yeah…and the corollary of all that for me on fairness: the market is fair, manipulation is corrupt, and folks ought make or break based on their own efforts and decisions.
I kept noticing that the institutions never achieve their published goals; all the rules and structure was just to keep/assert power.
So libertarianism seems fair….even too fair…but that’s the real world, one I prefer to all other manipulated, contrived worlds.
I kept noticing that the institutions never achieve their published goals; all the rules and structure was just to keep/assert power.
The logical conclusion of which is that the goals are a rationalization for the assertion of power.
“My mom would write down quotes from other journalists and hang them on her refrigerator. One of them was by that wonderful bastard H. L. Menkin. “Freedom of the press is limited to those that own one”. For years I would ponder it while getting milk for my cornflakes.”
I am expecting and looking forward to more contributions on glibertarians.com from gbob.
High compliment, my man. Thanks.
Through my 20s I was pretty unthinking in who/what I voted for. I recall voting for Anderson in my first Presidential election, and honestly don’t recall who I voted for after that until I started voting for whoever the libertarian candidate was. I don’t recall ever voting for a Democrat (maybe Clinton first run?) at any level, and maybe a few downballot Repubs.
Philosophically, there was no big “aha” moment or influence. If anything, I’m probably less a libertarian than I am a strict Constitutionalist (chalk it up to being a lawyer). Following the Constitution as written is libertarian as hell in our current society; eventually you might get down to some things that shouldn’t otta be done that are allowed by the Constitution, but we are a very long way from that. My ego and arrogance that anyone thought they knew better than me how I should live my life or do much of anything is probably also foundational.
Perhaps the one issue that pushed me along is gun control. Its clearly unconstitutional, of course, and I couldn’t help noticing the profound ignorance and dishonesty of gun control advocates. From there, I couldn’t help but notice the profound ignorance and dishonesty of Big Gov advocates everywhere.
The BBW’s have always appealed to me. Booze, Beef, and Weapons. They were always trying to attack one of them.
My dad was/is a vociferous conservative. So I was raised like that but there was always something not quite right, logical inconsistency and the like. I always had a fundamental belief in freedom that conservatives seemed to be slightly lacking in. I turned into a libertarian in college when, in my free time, I read/watched/listened to various people like Thomas Sowell, Ron Paul, Thomas Dilorenzo, Steven Crowder*, Judge Nap., etc. and that is when I discovered (t)Reason.com ///MakeReasonLibertarianAgain. Listening to them and others, especially in debates, gave me a broader understanding of competing views and I landed on their arguments being the best and most consistent with individual freedom and limited government. So since then I have been a
deplorable shitlordfreedom loving/advocating libertarian with the rest of you.*Yea he’s no libertarian but I found/find him entertaining, especially when doing things like this.
Crowder isn’t a libertarian, but he’s friendly to libertarians, which is good enough for me.
I’m a leave me the fuck alone libertarian. That’s my overriding philosophy.
I had a very strong anti-authoritarian streak growing up (and still to this day). One of my earliest memories was watching my irate Dad walk past at least 20 people in line to check out at a very nice hotel, drop the room keys in front of the clerk, and tell them to send him a bill. I remembered thinking what is wrong with all these people just standing there like sheep because the hotel clerk told them to in order to cover his fuck-up.
I soon realized that you can’t do that with the government. When I went to get a copy of something at the equivalent of city hall, I noticed a line of several hundred people at the cashier. After asking, I found out this was the line to get a mandatory $20 decal for my car, which is due today. The penalty for not having one is free reign to be harassed at checkpoints and pulled over by law enforcement. So I was forced to wait for hours in line, to purchase a stupid fucking little sticker, to prevent having a govt gun thrust in my face. I would have gladly paid triple the fee online to not have to wait, but the government doesn’t give a shit about customer service.
There’s been other petty issues that have cropped up over the years. I couldn’t help but laugh in disbelief when I learned that I was forbidden from hunting on my own property, in season, on Sundays. Of all the absurd things. We prefer to do the grocery shopping Sunday mornings. I remember the first time we had to hand over alcohol at the register because we couldn’t legally purchase it for another 20 minutes. The time my wife got a parking ticket for parking partly on the grass of our own property that didn’t have a curb. Or the time I got a ticket from the city for putting a headboard out on the curb one hour before it was “legal”.
Obviously there’s other much more serious issues like an out of control CPS, taxation of property, and rape boxes for victimless crimes. The petty things just really hit home how helpless one is with dealing with an out of control government vs. a private entity.
“I’m a leave me the fuck alone libertarian. That’s my overriding philosophy.”
You could have stopped right there.
BTW – highest paying species right now are white oak, black walnut and black cherry. $1 per board foot on the stump.
Thanks, I just found a local forester and need to work out a time for him to come out. I’m looking forward to hearing his thoughts.
almost forgot: I hate cops and found the justice system perverse.
Cops enforced curfew. Maybe that’s okay: I enjoyed sneaking out, walking to town, rendezvous with buddies even more because of the chase.
Cops gave me crap for toting a gun as a minor the few furlongs it took me to escape city jurisdiction; eventually I learned to simply keep an ear out for cars and step off into the woods and terra less firma: crap a fat cop doesn’t want to run in or waste time hosing off his shoes.
Dad was grocer and was always apprehending shoplifters. Around 11 I caught one and was the star witness. Quick conviction on the facts, no big deal, except: I voiced pleasure that the case was not just my word versus the perp’s, and Dad answered something about that not mattering much because the judge knew “he wasn’t there to waste his time.” It was clear to me: these patronizing pricks were happy to cut corners on the way to justice, and it made my blood run cold. At 11 I immediately inferred: lots of people lie, cops lie, so there’s a bias, there’s a fix, and god help you if you get on the wrong side of it all. Systems are made of people, people are shit; the only way to have a decent system is to have a very tiny system managing only the essential issues with as light a touch as possible.
I learned that the cops weren’t your friends in the ska-punk scene in the 90’s. Copwatch was a thing back then, and I knew most of the local SHARPs (most of whom had their own stories to tell). That on top of my own encounters with getting pulled over as a long haired teen steered me clear of cop worship.
Smoking pot in high school inoculated me against cop worship. It was crystal clear to me and all my pothead friends that any encounter with police could end catastrophically.
Cop got me when I was in HS when I was dumb enough to leave a baggie on the front seat of my car.
And nothing else happened. Cop admonished me for being a dipshit, dumped the baggie and left.
Honestly, the cops in my town were fine.
I suspect we were let off the hook a time or two, but that doesn’t change the fact that any of our encounters with police could have ended catastrophically.
#StonerLivesMatter
@Creosote Achilles. My tl;dr was not about your article. I hung on every word.
I meant MY story is too long and boring. It starts at LIW.
That’s how I read it. 🙂 And thank you, that’s very kind.
It’s a long story filled with terror, fraught with danger, and plenty of dead-ends. I was raised in a boring, very conservative town dominated by churches. I myself was raised CRC, which, among many things, taught self-reliance, but was also heavily Calvin. Heck both my parents attended Calvin College. Anyways, it was the 70s. My brothers and I were given a wide and almost-Tom Sawyer like childhood – I rarely saw my parents, especially during the summer months. This again reinforced self-reliance and we often settled disputes with the neighbors directly, without the intervention of school or parents. My old man was also of the “if you want it, you have to earn it” sort of dad. So my brothers worked the “muck farm” when they were teenagers. Being the youngest I got away without working like a slave, waiting to the tender age of 15 before coming a dishwasher.
Throw in some rail-against-the establishment punk rock, sprinkle in some intellectual snobbery, and an atheist since the age of ten, and you have the makings of a … young and stupid communist. And that’s what I considered myself in the heady days of the Reagan 80s. But I never took part of any college organization, nor did I join in any protests. I’ve always been a loner; someone who is not interested in joining a mass _anything_. From Philosophy Major, to EE, to a CS degree, I was ready to join the world as a computer programmer / support guy.
After college – working full-time – my politics began to drift right. Seeing the taxes takes out of my paycheck was a real eye opener, plus raising I was (and still am) an atheist but my views of religion had been tempered with time. I voted for Bush twice, but lost heart during the Iraq War. It was Hit and Run, found through Instapundit, that opened my ideas to Libertarian thoughts. And changed my mind on a lot of things – especially my stance on war.
Lots of detail and little things lost in the mix here but it gives the general idea. I certainly haven’t read much of the Libertarian tracts/books, but come from a historical and programmer mindset. Simple systems work the best; an overbearing government leads to the loss of freedom, and only reinforces greed and cronyism. Any time spent in a large or even medium company will show you that managers aren’t the best suited for the job; they are often suits – the biggest ass sniffers in the organization; raised not by merit but by who they know and how well they can BS. The same holds true with politicians.
Forgot to add: Moderate Republican “Help Yourself” Dad with an “Woman in Black” Democrat mom makes for an interesting combination as a kid.
Yeah, I bet this resulted in some seriously interesting erm family spats…
Gah – there are a hundred things I want to add. The original Cosmos tv shows, the “space age” excitement that was still going on in the 70s, the “can do” attitude, my old man making demeaning comments about one of the richest men in America, in the man’s presence, learning how making money = more freedom to do what you want, and my learned hatred of authority; my hatred of bullies – I was often targeted being the shy sensitive kid; and learning from my brother to fight, even if you lose. Being fascinated with King Arthur when I was a kid; my early inkling of honor and fighting for good. The punk rock shows, running a PA for the punk scene, and the internal squabbles with the scenesters. Camping, hiking, skateboarding, fist fights, skiing, my very odd best friend (who sadly is a doctrine liberal now) who suffered much abuse the bullies, smoking weed for the first time, getting alchohol when I was a teenager, the hatred of cops I had, etc, etc etc
As I have said before, I’m a “golden rule” libertarian. Treat others, et c.
I hate nannyism with the fire of a thousand suns.
My story:
As a teenager in the 80’s, I couldn’t figure out why so many people thought Communism was awesome, since it seemed self-evident to me that all the capitalist countries had lots of cool stuff, while the commie countries were all totalitarian shitholes. Also, Reagan seemed like an okay guy to me, so all the fear/loathing directed his way seemed ridiculous (and actually, this sort of thing continues to be an issue for me – I’m wary of Republicans, but the attacks them from Democrats are always so stupid and over-the-top that they push me to the right).
As a potsmoking atheist metalhead, though, I couldn’t get on board with the “religious right”/socon portions of the Republican party. But then the Democrats, led by Al Gore’s wife, declared that the music I liked was bad and needed to be regulated, and started hauling musicians before Congress and demanding they explain themselves. At which point I decided, well, fuck those guys too.
Around that time, my (loyal Democrat/borderline commie) dad suggested I look into the Libertarians and check out Ayn Rand. I skipped Rand’s novels but read a few of her philosophy books (Philosophy: Who Needs it and The New Left in particular). I also discovered PJ O’Rourke around that time and read several of his books. These led me to my current beliefs, which are more-or-less that individual freedom is good, free markets are good (and a natural extension of individual freedom), and government intervention nearly always causes more problems than it solves.
PJ O’Rourke’s drift into more or less the GOP establishment has been a sad sight. I was always an enormous fan.
Funny. I was misquoted by a small-town news reporter when I was a teenager too. I never forgot that lesson.
I posted a while ago about my conversion to, and the away from, libertarians. Though the distinction between libs and where I am is so fine, only someone in this tribe would get it.
But in short, I’ve always felt this way (no, this isn’t a story about how I knew I was gay when I thought Luke looked better than Daisy). Where that places me on the (political) spectrum just seems to change every once in a while. I think that says more about the spectrum than it does about me. In the mid 90’s when Newt took over, I could have sworn I was conservative. For like 3 days between when W was inaugurated and when 9/11 happened, I was sure I was (remember how different he was then?) These days, I’m 100% sure I’m not. I’m sure it will change before too long.
Never read Rand till I was in my 30’s, and that shit never moved me. Heinlein, Lord of the Flies, the book of Job, the impact of Boy Scouting did much more to move me into the Classic Liberal with strong civic-based republican leanings than anything Rand, Rothbard, or Mises ever wrote.
Could you expound on how the book of Job influenced you?
Yes please. I’d like to hear this too.
Job is ultimately a story that doesn’t make any sense to us humans. We know that God is good (assuming you buy into the bible). Therefore, what happens in Job, at the direction of God, including the actions of Satan are both at God’s direction and good.
How do you reconcile what happens to Job with “good?” Don’t know. Can’t be done based on our mortal understandings of causality and of good. But if, as a matter of faith, one believe that it is good, and that this is an intractable problem, one must therefore come to the understanding that they will never be able understand.
Thus, one should be expansive in their understandings and humble in their conclusions. Sound like any political philosophy you know of?
At the time, I read Job a *lot.* I was still a Catholic, and I was still in love with the aesthetics of the Church (and still am.) But I started actually reading my bible, and realizing that the major lessons in the Bible were very much in opposition to the actual structure of the Church, as I saw it. There was a lot to Job, and so I read it over and over and over trying to rationalize the Bible and the Church. I ultimately wasn’t able to, and this is the central reason I left the church. I now try to form my little section of the secular community into a community that is aligned better with those lessons – egalitarianism, respect for respectable authority, distrust of respectable authority, a clear observation of the difference between the two, charity, etc.
a whole bunch of typose there.
there will be things we will never be able to understand.
distrust of unrespectable authority.
I’m sure there are more. Hopefully you get the point.
Yes, thank you.
I share somewhat similar feelings about it. God made a bet with Satan and allowed Satan to do all these horrible things to Job.
I decided that god wasn’t the one I wanted because he was an asshole to his disciple.
“Boy Scouting did much more to move me into the Classic Liberal with strong civic-based republican leanings than anything Rand, Rothbard, or Mises ever wrote.”
Sacrilege
My nephew was a newspaper reporter for a couple years. Mostly covering high school sports.
I stopped buying newspaper by then but once in a blue moon I’d get a Saturday paper to see what my nephew was covering. He had a report on high school fishing, I sent him an email saying I thought it was good. He replied: “Thanks. But half of my report was left off and most of what was left in was extremely embellished by the sports editor who fancies himself a creative writer, so most of what you read is completely made up by him. The true story is actually way more interesting but once I sent it in I deleted it. The stuff about the coaches wishing they had more money for the program – the subject never came up when I talked to them.” He quit a couple weeks later.
I would be far more surprised to hear some reporter actually got any story correct than otherwise. Like meteorologist, reporters seem to be able to get it all wrong and still stay employed. Well, for now they do.
I misread this at first glance and thought he was trying to get a guest spot on Oprah discussing terrifying new teen trends.
Boy Scouts probably influenced me as well, but we were the odd troop. When we saw Red Dawn and the Cuban invaders referred to the paramilitary organization known as the Boy Scouts, we took it as a missive and styled ourselves as such.
Half my wardrobe came from military surplus stores during that period. The other half was styled after Crockett, for my evenings out.
Hell, the Boy Scout troop I was in had a bunch of geeks who wanted to get away from the bullies, and the other half was kids who were offered Boy Scouts as their community service time by a judge. We never lost capture the flag…
There wasn’t a specific moment, I’ve been this way for as long as I can remember; I probably inherited it. My father grew up in Los Alamos to parents both of whom grew up in orphanages and were absolutely dirt poor and considered human garbage; this was when anti-Semitism was a real thing, not just something fashionable among college revolutionaries. My grandpa (who I never met unfortunately) got a silver star in the Pac Theater then found a job as a security guard at LANL. Continuing to be an undesirable (Los Alamos operates on an Indian-style caste system in which scientists are Brahmins ranging down to support staff as untouchables) he gained huge respect for meritocracy. The big difference between LANL and India is that you can work your way into a different caste. So there’s that from my Dad’s side.
My mom grew up in a small town, not small like you Easterners would think (no offense) I mean really small; 2000 people and the nearest town with over 10,000 people is Amarillo 2.5 hours away. Her parents were cattle ranchers. Being a rancher in a small town almost guarantees that you will be fiercely independent and have complete distrust and contempt for the government. To their mind, the government existed only to tell people what to do and waste money (not much different with how I see it now).
So I guess my libertarianism was (forgive the term) baked in. I also, for whatever reason, was born with a major instinct toward justice and fairness; real fairness not SJW fairness. For instance, the first I time I ever heard about affirmative action (probably around age 5) I was utterly disgusted. I always did, and still do, treat people strictly as individuals, not as cogs in some kind of identity machine or bags of past injustice and trauma from which to extract ideas and feelings.
I guess I fit the stereotype of liking and respecting individual persons, but feeling hate and contempt for “humanity” or any such collective. Does that make me a misanthrope? Who knows? I’m a lot more cynical than I was in my younger days (though I suppose that’s to be expected). My true dream life, absent any confounding factors, would be that of a hermit, preferably deep in the Mountains or Alaskan Bush. I’d like a bar to be no more than 2 miles away so I could go get drunk and have human contact when I want, not when I don’t want.
At core; I find all of this to be one big joke and we’re the punchline. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest to learn in the afterlife that this was some kind of gameshow or reality television for non-corporeal superbeings. Or just nothingness. Whatever.
“So I guess my libertarianism was (forgive the term) baked in.”
I see what you did there. As someone that never did drugs, I get real weird looks from people when I tell them I am a libertarian. Most think libertarianism is something practiced by basement dwelling pot smokers. Man are they hurt when I inform them about our orphan mines and how we also like to wear monocles. There is a reason Hydrogen and stupidity are the two most common elements in the universe I guess.
Same here. Never touched the stuff. Drank to excess on occasion, smoked hookah on occasion, but I’ve steered clear of the illegal stuff.
People get flummoxed when I argue for legal heroin after mentioning that I’ve never even smoked pot.
Odd how that works. I also advocated for gay marriage (actually government non-recognition of any marriage but that argument is too nuanced for most; and back before BAKE THE FUCKING CAKE) while never having any intention of getting married to another dood.
My biggest objection to gay marriage was that I knew it was a ploy by the lawyer lobby to get even more divorce cases….
Seriously, the only time I have had conflicts between my beliefs and what i wanted to see happen was when I suspected that I would end up paying more for whatever it was being peddled. I would never object to anything between consenting adults of sound mind unless it somehow made me financially responsible, and unfortunately, with the team blue, everything they peddle seems to make me financially responsible. Team red is not much better, but at least they agree it is my money and not that of the state (for now).
I’m also a person who’s only done alcohol and not the illicit stuff.
Of course, I’m also a miser, and wine with dinner is one of my luxuries.
Until I took my foray into the pot business, this was me. I’ve argued against the drug war for nearly my entire adult life, even when the strongest mind-altering chemical I ingested was caffeine.
I find the drug war to be a complete waste of money, time, and (good?) people. I am still worried about how they would roll that back though, because I suspect that they will then create a whole new massive government bureaucracy to replace the current one fighting the war on drugs to treat the drug users, and that likely – based on historical data – will end up costing more than the WOD, while doubling down on the infringement of our freedoms. I guess the short of it is that I distrust the nanny state to do anything that won’t cost and hurt more…
Don’t worry, they’re not going to roll it back.
Too many hands in the cookie jar.
Not what I was hoping for. I would like that stupid shit to end. I just don’t want it to happen because the people doing it just create a whole new giant and even more costly bureaucracy to replace it.
There are no magic bullets, but ending the drug war would do more to solve many of the problems the left and the right claim to worry about then almost any other single policy. If I didn’t realize that the left is about control, not about what they claim I’d be confused as to why they don’t want to end it.
Ending the drug war would:
*Eliminate gun violence. Almost all “gun violence” in the country is gang violence motivated by the drug war.
*Improve the lot of blacks and browns by:
-Fewer of them in prison over bullshit drug busts, resulting in more intact families.
-Less cause for the cops to hassle them
-Increased opportunities as the follow-on effects of violence, broken families, and prison sentences are reduced.
*De-militarizing the police
*Shrinking the prison industrial complex.
*Increased ability of those who are addicted to get help
The only people that would suffer would be cops, companies that run prisons, race pimps, and politicians. Which is why I don’t think we’ll ever see it. You’re right though, the amount of resources, money, and time it devours is a genuine outrage.
(Bit long winded, but you pulled one of my strings)
“(Bit long winded, but you pulled one of my strings)”
Maybe I was not clear enough that I find the whole WOD thing to be about as stupid and counter productive as it can get, CA, but the problem I have is that I am certain those that roll it back will replace it with a bureaucratic entity that is twice as massive ad far more costly, and make sure the create a whole new slew of problems they can then demand to be allowed to “fix”. Maybe I am too cynical.
No, no. I get you and I think you have a rational fear of something worse replacing it. I meant merely that like Q, if the drug war isn’t the most evil thing gov’t is doing right now it is in the top 5 and that is the reason why. I’m not sure how it could be worse, but I am certain bureaucrats would find a way.
You and I both know these people will never, ever relinquish the level of unsupervised control & power that this stupid WOD gives them. This only goes away if they can replace it with something at least equally onerous, and preferably worse. That is why I am very careful about my support to get rid of it. If they do so in a way that doesn’t fuck us all over just as hard or harder I will be out there leading from the front to undo this stain on our liberties. But I certainly will not just cheer it being removed only to have them replace it with a bigger shit sandwich.
Fuck, I hate that we are at a point where common sense and freedom have been relinquished for the false promise of security by so many.
The drug war is pure evil. I’d be loath to identify a single government initiative as the most immoral and destructive of all, but the WoD would be in the Top 5. Entire countries have been destroyed and hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people have died from the border to Tierra del Fuego because our government is so obsessed with what its own citizens put in their bodies. Not to mention the countless citizens locked in cages for the same reasons. Do DEA fucktards ever stop to think what the endgame is? Why do they get out of bed in the morning? What is this supposed to accomplish? Endless amounts of time, money and energy dedicated to stopping people from smoking a plant, or snorting some powder, or injecting a chemical. WHO. THE. FUCK. CARES.
People that want to control others care Q….
Teh drugs make addicts rape and rob. It is known.
Oh and religion. Obviously my dad is one of (((them))) and knowing what kind of lives my grandparents had, any idea that (((we))) control the world is laughable to me. While I am not black, nor did I live in the South, I have a pretty good idea of what it’s like to be treated with actual hatred and prejudice, not the made-up kind most people whine about today. My mom was Methodist, but not real strongly; my maternal grandparents were what could be considered Deist in reality and went to church mostly for the social interaction (super small town, whaddyagonnado?) My mom converted when she married my dad because my paternal grandparents, while not strictly forbidding an interfaith marriage, would have probably been driven to an early(ier) grave by it.
Long story short, we’d do major (((holidays))) and Christmas with my maternal gp’s but there was never any kind of real strong dogma or doctrine. If anything, our religion was the NAP and the Golden Rule. I’ve come to appreciate many things in all the major religious texts, but following any of them to the letter doesn’t really appeal to me. Something went haywire though because my sister ended up a rabid prog (while, of course, practicing libertarianism in her everyday life, funny how that works eh?). She still has unresolved Mommy issues because she’ll pick political fights with my mom for no reason like a teenager, quite unbecoming for a 40-something pulmonologist.
Basically just leave me alone and get off my lawn.
My mom grew up in a small town, not small like you Easterners would think (no offense) I mean really small; 2000 people and the nearest town with over 10,000 people is Amarillo 2.5 hours away.
I grew up (well, through grade school) in the Texas Panhandle (Pampa, TX). Whereabouts did your mother grow up?
Clayton, NM.
Been through there several times. I think growing up in towns like that exposed me to the full spectrum of people – when there is only one junior high and high school, you go to school not with a carefully curated selection of People Like You, but with frickin’ everybody – and taught me something about how its not where you live, its the people who live there, that make any place a good (or bad) place to live.
My family started out on the poorish end of middle class. My memories really start shortly after Pater Dean got out of them military and took his first real job as an engineer. We lived in a two-bedroom house with a swamp cooler and had one car until sometime in the early ’70s. Pater Dean is a canny fellow, not terribly burdened by morals or ethics, and so he worked his way up the ranks to being a plant manager (with a side gig here and there), and retired in his early ’50s and was a millionaire by the time he was 60 or so. I suspect seeing the American dream play out right before my eyes (he and Mater Dean were both raised by single mothers in something resembling poverty), whether I knew it or not, also affected my outlook as well.
Same here – my dad grew up in a house with no running water so no showers etc. My mom’s comment – she came from a wealthy ‘burn in Chicago – “It looked like the Ozarks!”
My grandfather was a certifiable nut, but a clever fellow who designed his own machines to make his work (he was a cripple) easier. He was never rich but he raised a bunch of kids who became wealthy. My uncle, who only had a GED, who started his own tool ‘n’ die business. He was a multi-millionaire when he sold it when retiring. My own old man, who started as a shoe clerk, and worked his way up the corporate ladder by being a no-bullshit manager type. He got wealthy by investment and a good, steady income.
mindless guess: I love all the west Texans I know because they have a fundamental independence coupled with a decent neighborliness.
I had rather sit on the side of the road with car trouble and subject to the random vagaries of who might happen along in west Texas than any other place save, maybe, upstate MN.
Grew up in a pretty mainstream Republican house. Liked Reagan. Went the the University of Chicago for grad school. Lived in Eastern Europe shortly after the wall came down and saw the wonders of government interference. All bootleggers, no Baptists. Nearly got arrested when the customs office wouldn’t let my contact lenses through because I didn’t have a prescription from a local optometrist, though I’m sure we could have come to an agreement with some vodka. Nearly got arrested again when my wife didn’t fill out some paperwork properly when we were leaving Russia. Read some Ayn Rand, and thought she got a lot right about the parasitic bureaucracy. Decided that though some government is necessary, it damn well better be limited.
I find it fascinating looking over everyone’s responses here how much Heinlein has influenced many people. I have read most of his output and really appreciate the libertarian themes in some of his books (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress being my favorite), however I also found a lot of his stuff to be utopian (especially the non-monogamy stuff, sorry guys) or just plain weird (read: time traveling incest et. al.). He’s undoubtedly one of the best sci-fi writers ever but I underestimated his impact as a philosopher.
As far as fiction goes, dystopian stuff has always had a bigger impact on me; what *not* to do if you will. We by Zamyatin, 1984, Anthem and Brave New World were the fiction books that probably influenced me the most. Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead were mostly just preaching to the choir. I got a lot out of existential philosophy as I’ve covered in some of my articles here. Anarchy, State and Utopia by Nozick was another good one. Honestly, one of the things that shaped my thinking almost more than anything was hours’ long discussions with friends and roommates over 40s of Colt 45 and a hookah in college.
“Fahrenheit 451” made me a free speech absolutist at the tender age of 13
1984 and Animal Farm are good manuals on why not to trust your neighbors.
Homage to Catalonia is a great memoir in how nothing works out as planned or as intended.
I find it fascinating looking over everyone’s responses here how much Heinlein has influenced many people.
I suspected that might come up. He really did have a huge influence and I think your assessment is pretty right on.
The other thing that isn’t a surprise to me, but would be to outsiders is how many of us grew up poor to working class.
I didn’t read Heinlein until after I discovered TOS. My parents were southern baptist Socons. What pushed me libertarian is when I asked “why” I was never given an answer beyond “because” So I started thinking for myself and developed my own moral philosophy. I didn’t realize until I took a “who you should vote for quiz” there was such a thing as libertarians. One day out of boredom at work I googled libertarian and found TOS and refined my belief system and followed the purge here.
To this day I hate when someone can’t answer the question of, “Why?” I’ve made it a point that I will always provide an answer to my niece and nephews whenever they ask that question (and the answer will never be, “Because”).
Yeah, I just make up shit, too. My nieces and nephews are in for a rude awakening!
That’s the thing. He didn’t futz around with gausey arguments about the difference between dentologicalism vs consequentialism. He told you in chapter 1 of the Red Planet that no free man gives up his gun, then shows you why by the end
of the third actof the book.I grew-up in a working class immigrant ghetto, surrounded by other ethnic immigrant ghettos (something you don’t see anymore in northern cities). My parents came here (separately) with virtually nothing, but they managed to make a good living for themselves and send all of their kids to Catholic school. The Catholics were still pretending like Jack Kennedy was the head of the Democratic Party and tried to pretend like Bill Clinton wasn’t a horrible human being (sounds familiar to today, no?), but the cracks were already showing. Despite everyone in the neighborhood being either the children of immigrants or immigrants themselves, the area had a tendency to vote Republican (a lot of Polish immigrants were as devoted to Republicans as wealthy whites along the lake were devoted to Democrats) or moderate Democrat, at least. I always saw the Democratic Party as “the man”, because they dominated everything and most of their local elected officials were virtually indistinguishable from the organized crime that dotted the area (later during the federal “Family Secrets Trial” all of these connections were exposed with little fan fair).
I never had a problem with the social conservative talk offered by Republicans, so long as they weren’t talking about framing it into law. When I got to college, I got a taste of the Democratic Party’s social policy that they very much wanted to frame into law (I still remember the first time I heard about a mandate to force all employers to pay for birth control, which was more than ten years before it ever actually happened). But, I was opposed to the Iraq War and I mainly hung out with liberals, even though I thought they were profoundly stupid on all other matters. I stumbled upon Ron Paul which led to Rothbard which led to the Mises Institute which led to antiwar.com which eventually led to Reason. And then I got disgusted and I don’t like to identify as a “libertarian”.
“I never had a problem with the social conservative talk offered by Republicans, so long as they weren’t talking about framing it into law. ”
See the problem was that the ones talking about it actually did so because they wanted to frame it into law. The thing that saddens me is that the republicans gave up on making sex illegal, and the left picked up that stupid fight and took it to w whole new level with this #metoo, patriarchy, all sex is rape shit we now have. Life truly is weirder than fiction.
Sex is too fundamental for the control freaks of the world to just let people do it willy nilly. IT MUST BE REGULATED.
I am waiting for some basement dwelling, BMI challenged, pasty white, patchouli smelling hipster to come out and claim that like healthcare, sex is a basic human need, and he should be getting some from the government for free… They should then promptly send him off to prison for a conjugal visit….
You haven’t met an incel yet, I take it.
And I hope I never do.
I don’t know. When they last tried to ban gay marriage they had enough Republicans in the House and Senate, plus enough Democrats who would cross lines to get it done. Instead they just used it as a talking point. I can’t think of any regulation of sex ever passed by Republicans. But, forcing others to pay for contraceptives and pay for abortions are real things that Democrats have done and want to do more of.
It’s always struck me as strange that Republicans are accused to peddling social issues, when Democrats peddle it into law.
A prog friend of mine was railing about Republicans wanting to stop women from getting birth control.
I pointed her to the legislation Republicans have been trying to get passed making birth control an OTC medication. That stopped her dead in her tracks (but she’s the type to think about things).
Then one of HER prog friends came along (a woman) (a doctor) talking about how dangerous it was for women to just be able to buy whatever birth control pills they wanted whenever they wanted.
As I’ve said here before, the problem in getting birth control is not the cost of the pills. It’s the time, effort, and sacrifice it takes for poor women to get to the doctor to get the prescription.
So I accused this woman of showing her white, upper middle class privilege, and that perhaps because of it, she was not aware of what a burden this is for poor women who may not have ready transportation, and why does she not want poor women to have ready access to birth control and to control their own bodies?
She tried to get out from under that, but she got piled on by progs who did not know the Republicans have been trying to do this forever, and the Dems have blocked them at every turn.
/smug
how dangerous it was for women to just be able to buy whatever birth control pills they wanted whenever they wanted
I’ve heard this as well. I asked one doctor what additional lab work, exams or, well, anything they did before prescribing birth control. As it turned out, nothing. Pretty much a woman asks for it, the doctor gives them a prescription, zero risk management going on.
Not only do they just write a scrip, what they will do is hand out whatever samples they have in the office. There is no effort to differentiate formulations and tailor a scrip to a patient.
This is not credible. Surely they ask them if there’s a gun in the house.
I was going to say something flip, but then I realized that with post-partum depression being what it is, they might actually start asking that.
Paper checklists have been shown to do better at screening for the pill than flesh and blood doctors holding a paper checklist.
I am like Suthen, Liberty is the natural state for myself. I personally like to believe it is my direct lineage to the Mayflower (working on my Son’s of the Mayflower application later this summer) and John and Priscilla Alden that has formed that pure love for freedom. I grew up in the suburbs of Los Angeles, where you can run in the streets all day long, drink from your neighbor’s water hoses when you were thirsty, schools didn’t look like prisons and you had to walk *gasp* more than a mile to get to first grade. We had friends. Not engineered to be an specific mix of anything, just friends. I thought that was what life was supposed to be.
My parents always pushed freedom and responsibility. My step-father hates guns, but not in the “I want to take them away from everyone” type of hate. He just doesn’t like them. He embodies what the 1A professes and always hammered into me that the best vote I could make was to write in Barry Goldwater. EACH. AND. EVERY. TIME. He truly gave me the gift of loving history and reading all that I could on the birth of this nation. Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers were staples to me.
I had an excellent, yet biased history teacher. There was no doubt he loved Reagan, but that was his personal bias. His teaching didn’t include that. He taught fairly, objectively and challenged us all to look at history as such. Another great teacher I had was a English teacher. He was a hippy through and through. I used to create t-shirts and one of them was a nice logo that said “Media Chaos”. He dropped his lesson plans for that day and we waxed the concept of the saying. Does the media feed chaos or does chaos feed the media. His best questions were always “Why?”
Sometimes we get people in our lives that truly help form our views, solidify them, recreate them or abolish them. That is a wonderful thing and a place like this really is a cesspool of villainy and debauchery.
you can run in the streets all day long, drink from your neighbor’s water hoses when you were thirsty, schools didn’t look like prisons and you had to walk *gasp* more than a mile to get to first grade. We had friends. Not engineered to be an specific mix of anything, just friends. I thought that was what life was supposed to be.
Sounds like my small town Texas childhood.
It was when California was absolutely nuts. We migrated from Idaho at the end of ’79 for my dad’s budding construction business.
*was not* but both work because I am sure that type of freedom scares the hell out of that authoritative nanny state that I used to call home.
This is where I grew up. When I bought my house here in Dallas, my first impression of the neighborhood was that it reminded me of the neighborhood I grew up in in 70s & 80s L.A.
I’m only pretending to be a libertarian so I can use the sweet sweet Koch brothers money for hookers and meth.
Wait, wut? Is that not the libertarian motto?
I was just lowly belly till someone smoked me out. Now I’m Bacon-Magic.
Show us a trick!
*sizzles*
Wipes his watering mouth….
Yes. Yes you are.
I appear to be a bit of an outlier – I have never read Heinlein, Rand, or Mises. I did read The Road to Serfdom back in college. Honestly, political theory/philosophy books have always bored me, and as far as Heinlein goes I’ve never been into science fiction at all.
OT: Check this shit out.
https://twitter.com/Junger1975/status/1026572667879546880
Only a couple of miles from my office.
Oh, shit.
Body shop owners are celebrating.
Here come the Dent Gypsies!
https://articles.silive.com/news/2017/08/dent_gypsies_at_it_again_on_si.amp
This has been a weirdly on-topic set of comments. For a change o’ pace:
Sunspot Update
My first suspicion that Global Warming was hooey was the flat denial by the warmists that solar output affected our climate enough to matter. The Sun is a mildly variable star; its output does, indeed, vary. How on Earth could changes in the primary energy input into our climate not affect the planet’s temperature? It struck me as ludicrously obvious, or at least in need of a good explaining-away, but nope – the warmists insisted CO2 was the be all and end all of climate inputs. And so a climate skeptic was born.
I was thinking the same thing. It took 180 comments before it went off-topic. That may be a record.
Also… same here. And as I started doing work that involved modeling and data for predictions, it really cemented my skepticism. Of course a model built on ignoring the primary input is going to give false readings. It can’t do anything else but that.
Q beat me by less than a minute. I suspect we have found the limit that this crew can keep on topic.
It is important to know one’s limits.
“the warmists insisted CO2 was the be all and end all of climate inputs. And so a climate skeptic was born”
Exactly. There is no doubt that the Greenhouse Effect is a real thing in a theoretical sense. However, the warmistas’ obsession with it being the only thing that matters and that it overrides everything else and the system is completely controlled by the level of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Such a view is naïve in the extreme and utterly unscientific.
YOU DON’T EVEN BULEEV IN THE GREEN HOWSE UHFECK BRAH. UR ANTI-SYENS!
No, I acknowledge that the greenhouse effect has theoretical underpinning; however, that alone is grievously insufficient to model something as hugely complex as the Solar-Atmospheric system.
I find most of their solutions to be of the anit-car, anti-suburban, anti-bourgeois crap I’ve been hearing since the oil embaro’s of the 70’s when I was a ute.
Yeah, then a new ice age was coming and the solutions were the same.
More marxism, right?
Exactly. A massive, multi-variate system is ostensibly entirely controlled by a single variable? Suuuuure.
UHHHHHH
cold is bad for food.
As a resident of Southern AZ, I’m quite unconcerned about global cooling.
As far as I can tell the best predictions available do not point to a grand minimum. Depends on the next cycle
Financial shows are going crazy due to Musk tweet about taking Tesla private at “$420/share” – one large investor called the 420 number a pot reference. Tesla stopped trading for a period, and issued a memo, stock is up almost 10% now is resumed trading.
BREAKING 3:34 p.m. ET
*Tesla CEO Elon Musk in Memo to Employees: Final Decision on Buyout Hasn’t Been Made
*Musk Memo: Shareholders Can Stay Investors in Tesla Or Sell at $420 a Share
*Musk Memo: Shareholders Would Have Chance to Sell or Buy Stock Every Six Months
*Musk Memo: Intention Is Not to Merge Tesla With SpaceX; They Would Remain Separate Companies
*Musk Memo: Once Tesla Has More Predictable Growth, It Makes Sense to Return to Public Markets
*Tesla to Resume Trading at 3:45 p.m. ET—Nasdaq
https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musks-twitter-account-am-considering-taking-tesla-private-at-420-1533661152?mod=hp_lead_pos1
Violation of SEC regulations? He better not sell or could be accused of a pump and dump scheme.
Power Lunch had Harvey Pitt via phone to discuss and there are already investors (primarily the shorts) screaming that the SEC needs to jump-in.
Not an SEC lawyer, but holy shit Musk’s lawyers have to be losing their minds over this. If he set out to try and manipulate the stock price he couldn’t have done better. If he buys or sells a single share he is in big trouble, and may be in trouble anyway.
Oooh. My area of expertise.
It’s absolutely an SEC violation, whether or not it’s a pump and dump. Specifically, he made a tender offer without complying with the rules.
The shares jumped because some Saudi guy pissed away $2 billion of his money. This shit has nothing to do with Tesla producing a viable and good product.
Reading the comments I find a bit here and there in almost every one that I can identify with. There is a lot of accidental commonality that we stumble upon as we grow up. I was not aware there were other people with the same beliefs as me until I was close to 50 years old. I was wandering around, searching for answers, found Robert Ringer’s “Looking Out for No. 1” as I have previous mentioned. The enlightenment began and the search was on. My home environment has always encouraged free thinking, my dad had a 4th grade education in Latvia, my mom had 8 years in country school, both were no nonsense people.
I discovered Liberty and Reason magazines at work, borrowed them to read at home, the rest is history. Thanks to all the different inputs on this site. Occasionally I have to LOL at some of the puns, many of the off references sail over my head and its great to know there are a lot of really smart people in the world.
“My first suspicion that Global Warming was hooey was the flat denial by the warmists that solar output affected our climate enough to matter.”
Considering the power output from the sun, the fact that earth’s atmosphere is not a static system (as most warmist models assume), that the lead and most abundant system to trap this solar energy in one of the most complex and ever moving systems is the ocean, and that the number one heat trapping gas is water vapor – and then by orders of magnitude compared to the CO2 peddled by people that say the answer isn’t a carbon free energy solution like nuclear, but heavy handed marxism – I find there are a lot of dots that point out warmists are lying douches. But yeah, ignoring the sun is a big problem. I remember pointing out that there were no SUVs on Mars, Venus or even Jupiter, but that we were seeing some massive temp (almost a full 1/2 degree C which didn’t actually materialize on earth for some reason) spikes there during heavy solar activity periods back in the early aughts. The warmists were not dissuaded that their claim man made CO2 is responsible and more heavy handed marxism is needed to save Gaia.
As far as I know solar power variations are not that great although it is hard to know how they accumulate. Just energy variation does not fully explain temp variation. But with the oceans and atmo you dont really know
This has been a weirdly on-topic set of comments.
Swiss is in his bunk.
Being Romanian in the post 90s chaos there were no traditional parties for alliegence. I do not have a single thing that made me libertarian just happened through the years. In university we were mostly apolitical except hating PSD and there was 0 debate. I never had a professor even mention politics and most of my peers didnt care
Right on CA, enjoyed the article very much. I was also a huge fan of the Dukes as a kid and I have commented here on several occasions that I think it was one of the most libertarian shows ever made. Reminds me that I need to order the DVD set of them before it gets banned so my kids can check it out.
I’ve always had a bit of an anti-authoritarian streak, but having my parents put through the financial ringer for ten years by the local city government during my formative years really had an impact. They lost all they had worked for decades for and came within thirty days of us getting booted from our house because city hall prevented them from building three houses on land they bought for a decade. I got called a libertarian when I went to UC Berkeley but I was really more of a squishy classical liberal then. It took the old site, reading a bunch of economics books and having kids to really turn me over to the Dark Side. Glad to be here. Yeeeehaaaaaw!
Here comes the latest and newest grievance from the retards. No, I will not date someone that once was a dude, just like I won’t date the girls John would definitely approve of because of their high BMI number.
I thought the idea was you cant help who you are attracted to… or do we bring back curing the gay?
So…straight women and gay men want dick.
Quelle surprise.
I’d ask what “trans-inclusive” means, but I honestly don’t care. Not one little bit.
It was interesting to read everyone’s personal stories. I am really amazed at the influence of Heinlein over Rand. I read my first RAH on the way to Germany where my mother was being posted during the Carter admin. I was a huge fan until he (RAH) went nuts.
I found you all when I was linked to a Brickbat over at TOS. For some reason, I was channeling my hatred of government stoogery through daily nut punches. For about two years, I never read anything there but the Brickbats; nothing from the peanut gallery either. Then I learned that my favorite thing was the commentariat…. Sometimes I even read an article just to see what everyone was pissed off at.
A JPFO publication The State vs. THe People was basically the beginning of of my slide into the dark side.
So, late to the party, and I have no idea if any of you will see this…
I seem to have a different background/youth than most here, as far as my philosophy back when is concerned*. I grew up in SE Dallas, and I was always a Repub as a kid, well into adulthood. It was simply the “correct” way to be. As a Christian, I was always a SoCon ( and, am a personal one now, if that makes sense, because I am a True Believer), as well as being an authoritarian, although I didn’t really know that until not so long ago. But, it explains my choice of career.
I didn’t really question things, per se. I followed rules, and just expected everyone else did, too.
Fast forward to Election ’08, and I was pissed. It seemed like everyone online couldn’t fellate Obama enough, and I actually set out to find some online, conservative echo chambers to make me feel not so alone. To wit, I was actually a fan of W, since it meant that the (D) wasn’t in office, and his spending/adventurism/etc didn’t really mean much to me because “GO TEAM” and “ignorance is bliss”. I still think he’s a decent guy-probably, but my eyes are definitely open to just how bad his admin was. I should point out that, for most of my life, “libertarian” meant “libertine”, so I pretty much stayed away from it.
So, I believe it was on the old MediaBusters site, in their links section, I came across one for a blog that I think was called “Power and Control”. It had a few writers, and was very much libertarian. What got my attention was when the main writer/admin would ask rhetorical questions-“Who owns you/your body?”, “Why do others get a say in what you put into it?”. See, at this point, I was just fine with the WoD, and yet thought I supported the Constitution. Once I tried to answer those questions, I began to see where I was wrong, and woefully inconsistent in my politics. It was a light-bulb moment for me (in my mid-30’s). I quickly moved to HnR, and became a libertarian. I voted for GayJay in ’12, and was actually happy that I took that leap. Of course, by ’16, I decided None of the Above was best.
But, that’s a different story.
*another reason why I lurk a lot. It often seems better to just keep my online mouth shut.