NB: This piece speaks about suicide in an abstract and philosophical manner and should not be construed as advocating for or endorsing suicide. If for whatever reason, you have stumbled upon this page and are actively considering suicide, please go here or call 1-800-273-8255.
Preamble
This is probably not going to be a happy or fun piece. Death is sad. It represents the great unknown; the termination of our fragile existence into something we know not what. It is permanent; more permanent than anything else we deal with in this world. And it causes overwhelming emotions of loss, grief and sadness. Suicide adds many additional dimensions to this. When someone chooses to die, the typical emotions of grief are compounded by a whole host of other emotions; confusion, anger, guilt and helplessness all come along for the ride. Perhaps most pernicious, suicide seems to be contagious in that friends and family of people who have committed suicide are more likely to experience suicidal feelings and even carry it out. Along with criminal acts like rape, incest and murder, suicide is one of the most taboo actions we have in our (read: Western) culture. I struggled with whether or not I should even write this piece lest the unlikely event of someone reading it was driven to commit suicide (hence the disclaimer above). That fear and the stigma surrounding suicide makes it a difficult topic to discuss dispassionately. Why should this be? What goes into a person making the decision to self-terminate? Can it really ever be called a rational decision? These are the questions I’m going to try and tackle.
Who Commits Suicide?
Before getting into this, first I think I better define what I mean when I’m talking about suicide in this piece. There is a somewhat fine line between suicide and euthanasia. When I think of euthanasia, I think of someone with a terminal illness for whom death is imminent regardless of what action they take. They are also suffering greatly and would prefer to “get it over with” rather than suffer through a few more weeks or months of pain before expiring. As is wont to happen, this definition is expanding in places where euthanasia is legal to include people with mental illnesses or non-terminal but painful conditions. After all, we’re all terminal, it’s just a matter of the timescale right? That further blurs the line between suicide and euthanasia. The difference, as I see it, is that someone who is depressed is not going to experience depression as an imminent proximate cause of death. It may be horrendously painful, but there is at least a somewhat decent possibility that that person can receive treatment and return to some kind of baseline level of health. The same cannot (usually) be said of someone with Stage IV brain cancer. There is plenty of debate about euthanasia and its ethical and moral implications as well, and it certainly is related to suicide, but it’s not what I want to talk about here. To that end, when I refer to suicide, I’m talking about a person making a conscious decision to end his life when there is no physical condition that will otherwise cause imminent death. (I can already see you saying “depression is a physical condition!” Yes it is, but if you lock a severely depressed person in a room without the means to kill himself and force feed him to keep him from starving, he’ll certainly be miserable, but the depression on its own won’t cause him to keel over).
Because of stigma and shame surrounding suicide, it’s notoriously difficult to get quality statistics on it. Often, surviving families, if there’s any ambiguity, will try and get the cause of death to be classified as accidental to avoid that shame. For example, it’s estimated that the majority of opiate overdose related deaths are actually intentional, but it’s very likely that most/all of them get classified as accidental. With that caveat, best quality studies put incidence at around 1% of the population or 12 out of every 100,000 people. This number puts it at about the same prevalence as schizophrenia, though the real number is likely higher. About 75% of all suicides occur in the developed world and are overwhelmingly male. Although women are more likely to attempt suicide, approximately four times as many men succeed (some regional variation exists). It’s hard to peel apart “suicidal gestures” and “calls for help” from authentic suicide attempts so that even further muddies the statistical water. Speaking generally, suicide is most common in Europe (especially Eastern Europe), Sub-Saharan Africa and the Americas. It is least common in East/Southeast Asia (Japan and South Korea being notable exceptions) and Muslim countries of the Middle East and North Africa. There is a pretty solid inverse correlation between the level of collective religiosity of a population and prevalence of suicide. Most religions put a very strong prohibition on suicide, Catholicism going so far as to classify it as a mortal sin on par with murder. Most of these prohibitions stem from the view that life is a gift from G-d and rejecting that gift is the ultimate contemptuous rebellion toward the Creator. Along with explicit prohibition on suicide, religious people are more likely to be members of tight-knit communities of like-minded people; a suicide preventative.
Why?
This is the question that invariably haunts friends and loved ones in the aftermath of a suicide. Very occasionally, people will commit ideologically motivated suicide as a political statement (think Buddhist monks self-immolating during Vietnam) and their purpose is pretty clear. These are outliers, however. It is far more common for the reason to be, if not a complete mystery, then opaque at best. Even in the presence of a detailed note, people left behind are often flummoxed about the reasoning of the suicidal individual. However, this is one of the key things to understand about suicide; the suicidal individual’s thinking is often distorted and the reasoning leading to the conclusion that suicide is appropriate only makes sense to said individual. This is important because it calls into question the assumption that suicide is a rational decision. Is distorted logic somehow inferior to “consensus” logic? What does “distorted logic” even mean?
One thing is for certain: suicide almost always leaves a trail of destruction behind it. The shattered families, inconsolable grief, confusion about motive and unanswerable questions will haunt those left behind forever. As stated before, it can be contagious. I have personal experience in which family friends experienced the suicide of the father, then both daughters within a 5 year span, leaving the mother alone. Needless to say, this was an unparalleled tragedy that resulted in nothing but misery, pain and nihilism. After seeing that kind of shitshow, it’s very hard to be dispassionate and logical about the ethical implications of suicide. However, as a group of people driven primarily by principle, such an analysis should be done.
Self Ownership
A keystone of libertarian philosophy is the axiom of absolute self-ownership. What you do to yourself, as long as it doesn’t violate the NAP, is permitted unquestionably. This goes for drug use, sexual behavior, obesity etc. All is not fun and games, however, as you are expected to bear the burden of responsibility for the consequences of those decisions. Don’t smoke 3 packs a day and then expect the taxpayer to bail you out when you get cancer.
That said, is suicide a violation of the NAP? I’m inclined to say no. You are hurting your loved ones and the people around you, but are you engaging in aggression toward them? Not in the sense that you’re endangering their physical safety or liberty directly. One could argue that smoking 3 packs a day is suicide, just in slow motion. If we agree that’s acceptable behavior, then giving a blow job to a .357 is equally acceptable.
This brings me back to the “distorted thinking” point from earlier. Can someone who chooses to self-terminate really be considered to be “in their right mind” and capable of making such a choice? I say the question is irrelevant because being in a state of “right-mindedness” does not have a clear definition. Distinct from the “reasonable person” standard of law, postulating some kind of philosophical “right mind” takes us down a slippery slope that leads to reeducation, crimethink and “enthusiastic consent” arguments re: drunken sex. What about if someone has dementia or schizophrenia and is imagining things that are objectively false which leads him to suicide? This is a situation in which philosophical vagueness comes into play and I don’t have an easy answer (a bit of shameless self promotion, check out my discourse on vagueness here). The distinction between distorted and undistorted thinking is a blurry one and the unintended consequences of trying to define it solidly are too great. Besides, this goes into a question of motives, which ultimately are irrelevant. Why does someone smoke 3 packs a day when he knows how bad it is for him? Doesn’t matter. Mind your own business. Fuck off, slaver.
These edge cases certainly don’t justify nullifying the larger principle of self-ownership, so I feel comfortable declaring suicide to be ethical from a libertarian perspective. (Reminder: ethics are derived from external codes of conduct and morals are principles on which an individual’s judgement of right and wrong are based; they are intertwined but not identical). If libertarian ethics are derived primarily from the NAP, then I can’t see how suicide is unethical. I believe as libertarians, we have to reserve the right of people to terminate their own existence. After all, your own self is your most fundamental piece of property, and you can dispose of your property however you wish. To say that you are partially owned by your loved ones opens the door to slavery. If one really wanted to construct an ethical argument against suicide without referencing religion (which is easy: G-d said not to), you’d have to fall back on deontological arguments. One could say that implicit in a marriage contract and/or the implied contract between parent and child when said child is brought into the world is a duty to live for the sake of those people. I’m OK if you want to make that argument; it at least seems to be logically consistent, but that’s as far as I go. I don’t believe any similar argument can be made in regards to the relationship between a suicidal person and his parents or his friends. Taking that approach very quickly slides into “social contract” territory and we all know where that ends up (nowhere good). To be sure™, I’m not even sure how I feel about “implicit” clauses in marriage and parental relationships; if your future spouse is known to be suicidal, put a prohibition against suicide in your vows (or better yet, don’t get married to that person).
What of morality? Well, trshmnstr had an excellent piece about, what he called Deferentialism vs. Restraintism (see here) that sums up two opposing philosophies of how libertarians can approach the problems of moral relativism inherent to libertarian thought. In each case, however, I think the approach to the problem of suicide is similar to the problem of drug use. Many libertarians recognize how stupid it is to shoot heroin. They may condemn it as evil and morally reprehensible. However, no libertarian worth his salt would say using it should be illegal or a reason to be locked in a cage. Suicide is trickier because, if carried out properly, there is no one to arrest or lock up. The only way then for it to be codified as wrong is in a personal code of conduct or with a deity. I’ve already argued that, in spite of its colossal collateral damage, suicide is not a strict violation of the NAP. Therefore, it has to fall into the same category as drug use or adultery or promiscuity or a host of other social pathologies that libertarians must tolerate in order to live in a free society. Whether an individual considers it to be immoral likely falls on the Deferentialist/Restraintist spectrum.
Coda
When it comes to suicide, I fall on the Restraintist side of the aisle. I strongly condemn it as both immoral and stupid. I recognize a person’s right to take himself out of the game, but I also reserve the right to call that person a moron making a terrible decision. I say this not without compassion for those suffering through deep depression which distorts reality to the point that suicide seems rational. However, life is about taking personal responsibility. Part of being a fully actualized, mature human being is being capable of knowing when things in your life are going sideways, and then acting to fix them. Some people see suicide as “fixing” their problems and I suppose in some ways it does. However, to use a cliché, it’s a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It’s sending your car to the junkyard when the brakes go bad. It’s tunnel vision resulting in extreme selfishness. No matter how much you may think it, people will not be better off without you. And if you need to find a reason to live, you can always look at boobs on the internet.
I’m going to read it, but WALL OF TEXT HURTS!
Most Glibs pieces are short and snappy. It’s good to have the occasional longer, serious article.
Indent?
Paragraph?
Tulpa?
I think the paragraph breaks were perfect. And indenting is for old people.
Your second statement is incorrect.
First-line indentation is a style choice to help accentuate a new paragraph, it has an advantage over double-spaced paragraph breaks in that it makes it possible to indicate scene breaks without new headers.
In an online article, the double-spaced paragraph break has become more popular because of how it looks on a dynamic display and the consistancy with a wide variety of stylesheets. In an environment where the content creator has more control, indents allow for a better look, and less space used, which becomes an important factor when you’re dealing in hardcopies and paper is a cost.
Oh yeah? Well…umm…how about I indent your face, smart guy?!
Are dimples in vogue again?
They never went out!
https://www.opowiastka.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/3-12.jpg
UCS wrote this comment out years ago and hot-keyed it.
Today he finally got to use it.
He’ll allow himself some sugar in his oatmeal tonight.
Sugar? Oatmeal? You want to sabotage my diet with loads of carbs, don’t you?
Real Scots use salt anyway.
Salt from orphan tears is best
My view:
Since you can do double-spaced paragraph breaks easily, they are my preferred method for technical/business documents – they improve readability beyond indents without double-spaced breaks . For contracts or documents that are based on an outline, I prefer block indents rather than having the text run all the way to the left margin for sub-sections, with a big honking indent at the beginning of the paragraph that just looks stupid.
If you have double-spaced paragraph breaks, a first-line tab indent is unnecessary and unsightly.
Oddly, I still prefer no double-space break with indents for fiction. Can’t explain it, but there it is.
Dbl space & indent no necessary if u text everything, u no
The indent is still necessary, otherwise you can’t
(necessarily) distinguish between a paragraph that ends
at the bottom of a page and one that continues
on the next page.
In keeping with the theme:
http://www.suicidegirls.com
NSFW.
I dated a girl in college whose graduate thesis was on pornography in America. She interviewed and met the Suicide Girls. Too many tattoos for my liking
I once said to Riven that Suicide Girls is when ugly people want to do porn.
Still makes me want more tattoos, though…
*winces*
Pics?
Don’t let these philistines influence you, Riven.
I’m all the influence you need.
Still makes me want more tattoos, though…
I’ve been toying with the idea of getting my tattoo spruced up. Its gotta be 15 years old and needs refreshing, plus its a black-and-gray and I’m thinking maybe color. We’ve got a guy in town who does first rate Japanese-style who I should probably talk to, but I just haven’t quite gotten motivated.
So, don’t listen to these old coots shaking their canes at you, Riven. You be you.
Very nice! Very nice, indeed. I have two new tattoo ideas in varying degrees of “fleshed out.”
The best one involves an octopus, a good deal of negative space, and would span several body parts. *waggly brows*
It’s good to know there’s support for that sort of thing, too!
when ugly people want to do porn
Rule 34 says you’re just scratching that surface.
Which is a great thing. Anyone who is mildly interested should do porn. Except hot 19 year old women. All hot 19 year old women should do porn, interested or not.
BTW, checking the suicide girls page for the first time in a decade…. they have gotten much more attractive over the years.
Have they gotten rid of the acres of ink?
Nah.. that’s kinda their thing. But there didn’t seem to be nearly as many borderline “ok honey, that’s enough… you can put it back on now” cases. And several more “instagram model” types.
Or maybe I’ve just gotten old. That is also a distinct possibility.
I thought that was burlesque.
“Let’s go to a burlesque show! It’s like going to a strip club, only the women aren’t all that attractive, and most of them are overweight, and they don’t actually take their clothes off. Oh, and it costs more, and they don’t serve alcohol. Wheee!”
Not quite seeing the appeal.
In light of the previous sentence, that’s a plus.
The Venn diagram between SG and burlesque models looks mostly like an “O”.
Is it the big O?
Hmm, May 15th L.A.
This is such a dark piece (but, well written). A few years ago, I was at a Christmas party and someone was talking about how a person had committed suicide by jumping on the El tracks as the train was coming. “Christmas suicide is so 80’s and tacky” someone remarked.
I’ve never forgotten that. Never off yourself on Christmas. It’s bad form
But that’s also a big time for suicides, particularly among those estranged from their families.
Not really though. Urban legend.
Perfect! Well Done Q!
Fine piece, Q. I was in a discussion a year or so ago with a prog friend of ours who came down (not surprisingly) on the other side. “You are part of society, so you are stealing from society when you commit suicide.” He absolutely rejected the idea of self-ownership, but at least that was consistent with his overall ethos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41iFYO0NQA
“You are part of society, so you are stealing from society when you commit suicide.”
And a suicidal person would care why?
I know a Prog that also outright rejects the idea of self-ownership.
But the people that I know that think like this are not consistent because they support abortion “rights” based on “her body her choice.” Sounds like an argument based on self-ownership.
People who don’t believe in self-ownership are either endorsing slavery or hoping for a tragedy of the commons.
That is so unbelievably twisted. So not just my money and labor, but my very life belongs to society? Fuck. Off. Slaver.
Progressives seem to love state assisted suicide, in that the state decides when it’s time for you to go. I think this is because deep down they know that this the only way to really control the costs of single-payer on the back end…
I had a good friend who was found naked and dead in his closet with a belt around his neck. He was a pretty bad alcoholic whom I’m pretty sure killed himself out of despair. His girlfriend was passed out on the bed in the same room where he killed himself.
My buddy was something of a sexual deviant. His death was sad, so in order to beer cope with it, I choose to believe that he did not kill himself. I believe that he died when his spotter passed out while he was doing a little autoerotic asphyxiation. I beleive he died doing what he loved.
why can’t someone (some intrepid Japanese entrepreneur perhaps) invent a “fuse” that will fail/break/snap when the weight limit reaches whatever you have predetermined? if you weigh 150, set the fuse at 120lbs. then when you pass out, instead of suffering a most ignominious death, you regain consciousness on the floor of your closet thanking your lucky stars for the Chokegasm 3000.
Raston Bot’s Mom: “Honey why do you keep buying those cheap belts? I’m gonna surprise you with a better one.”
it doesn’t even need to be that complicated. Run the strap from the noose over the towel rack or whatever, then hang on to it with your non-wanking hand. You pass out, you let go, you fall on your ass, you wake up.
The problem is, a lot of folks who try autoerotic asphyxiation use stiff, narrow cords that can damage the trachea, or even fracture the hyoid bone. It doesn’t really matter how quickly the noose releases, if your windpipe has already swollen shut.
Be careful out there, kids…
Because people still are embarrassed about their kinks. I’m sure some sells a rope specifically for self choking, but people are to hung up to buy it. We still get people in the OR that lost something up their butt. Just buy a butt approved toy already.
“It was a one-in-a-million shot, Doc!”
We still get people in the OR that lost something up their butt.
Oh do tell!
We still get people in the OR that lost something up their butt.
I don’t even ask, anymore. I’m afraid the ED staff will pull out a bin with all the . . . things they’ve had to extract from people’s butts, and I don’t even want to ring that bell.
As someone who is quite openly kinky (at least here) and is into erotic choking (Apparently, I do in fact need to choke a bitch), there aren’t any such toys that I know of. You’d need something that applies pressure to the carotid without applying any to the windpipe, and that would release once the user is unconscious. It would have to be custom made because of that. I suppose the other route might work; a modified cpap machine that restricts air into the lungs without putting pressure on the carotid that also knows when to restore the flow of air. Most of the people I know in to receiving this are more looking for the sensation of being on the edge of consciousness not the passing out. Though I know a few who do like being choked out as part of the capture because of the verisimilitude. Self choking is some seriously high risk shit.
Although women are more likely to attempt suicide, approximately four times as many men succeed (some regional variation exists).
We need to close the suicide gap. The patriarchy is literally keeping women alive.
I think the differential is in intent. I’m speculating, but I’d wager a lot of those women are crying out for help, and don’t actually want to die, while the men are of the mind “I’m ending this,” and so go for more definitive actions.
Some. A lot of it is that many women try to do things that won’t mess up their faces or leave a big mess for someone else to clean up. So pills, drowning, wrist cutting, driving into oncoming traffic with no seatbelt (I read about several young women doing this. At least one didn’t die and I hope is doing a life sentence for murdering some people at random). These tend to be less fatal than shooting oneself in the head or jumping off a very high place or hanging.
Anecdotally-
I know of several girls who have attempted suicide. None of them seemed serious in the attempt.
The guys that I know who tried to kill themselves all succeeded because they used pretty foolproof methods.
.270 to the head.
belt around the neck
drawing a gun on a cop
honda accord into a tree at 100+ mph
Yeah, I know a couple as well. Double barrel shotgun to the head, Camero into a tree at 120mph, massive heroin overdose… Nobody was coming back from any of those.
I don’t know any “successful” women. But I do know several who try on a regular basis, and one who has a propensity for crying out about her suicide attempt at two in the morning on social media… but never actually follows through with any actions.
The cutter is really cute. I have the weird “crazy-meter” that makes crazy chicks extra attractive to me, so I knew the cutter had issues before I saw the scars. She seemed way more attractive than appearances warranted… sure enough…. cutter. (It is a pretty dumb super-power, but it is the only one I have. )
“At least one didn’t die and I hope is doing a life sentence for murdering some people at random”
That was the one in Montana I think?
I remember one here. Probably happens more than we know.
One of my Minnesotan friends’ teenage son was the driver of a car that a lady decided would be her death instrument when she jumped out in front of it.
It “worked” for her, but the poor kid was traumatized even though it wasn’t his fault.
Oops, didn’t read down.
That’s because women, generally, choose ineffective methods, they set themselves up for someone to intervene. Men choose effective methods and don’t set themselves up for discovery.
“I have personal experience in which family friends experienced the suicide of the father, then both daughters within a 5 year span,”
The little brother of the guy in the anecdote above killed himself about two years later.
I’m not surprised. I had someone very close to me kill themselves. Its been about 10 years, and some wounds never heal.
I lost a family member a year-and-a-half ago. I can’t even type anything else on it.
Well thought out article.
I came in here expecting tits, but I got something completely different. *Scrolls down to comment #2* Ah, all has been set right in the universe.
A side trail to this topic that I find interesting is the concept of immortality via keeping ones brain alive organically or electronically which very well may be a possibility in the future. What then if one becomes tired of living, however you are physically incapable of shutting down the apparatus keeping you alive yourself. You must rely on someone to turn you off so to speak. I personally am in no hurry to die but I don’t really think that I want to live forever either. If in that situation, what obligation does anyone have to fulfill your request to die and what is your recourse if they won’t even if they are contractually obligated. What if the law nulls and voids all such contracts during a pro-life political movement. Where does NAP fall into that.
I don’t think you should be able to obligate someone else to kill you. As for the recourse of the brain in the jar, I’m not sure, as it would really depend on the legal and political landscape – one which we don’t have insight into.
Well you would think that there would be some sort of contract to maintain the equipment keeping you alive, so could that obligation not be included in the contract? Would such an obligation be enforceable? Sounds like you’re saying no?
I think that if there is a termination clause, it should be within the rights of the maintainer to withdraw from the contract whould willful homicide be beyond their capacity, and the brain in the jar should be free to find someone willing and capable of handling the act.
Presumably, there is some mechanism for communication, otherwise the jarred brain would be unable to express their desire to cease.
I still want to Be a Cylon and travel the Universe
If Tricia Helfer is the universe, I want to travel it as well.
While she isn’t my type, there are definitely women who I would shrink myself into a little man for just so I could live in their vagina.
And Grace Park.
She really needs a better hair stylist. 9 times out of 10 her hair style is completely unflattering to her.
She got too skinny there for a while too. But she was an absolute fawn in BG.
This requires a deeper discussion. It is striking that suicide is so low in traditionally Buddhist E/SE Asia when Buddhism is the notable exception to a major world religion that strongly prohibits suicide, even going as far as to praise it in some very limited contexts. Could it be that the lack of stigma around suicide in these cultures inhibits those seeking to punish and degrade themselves in the pits of utter despair? It seems to me that many of those who contemplate suicide absent of reasons like terminal illness or martyrdom do so out of a deep sense of self-loathing. If killing oneself isn’t seen as the worst thing one could do to oneself, then perhaps they look for what is considered the worst in that culture.
Interesting take. You have much more knowledge and first-hand experience with SE Asian culture so I defer to you; but it seems possible.
What would be the worst thing someone could do himself in traditional Buddhist culture?
Murder one’s parents.
That’s a pretty huge taboo in western culture. Is it somehow more taboo in buddhist culture?
I don’t want to speak for HM, but yes. Filial piety is a large component of Buddhism and Confucianism. It would be more morally acceptable to kill your children than your parents.
Yes, and I can say from first hand experience that where as we imagine unconditional love flowing from parent to child (i.e., you love your child no matter what they do), it is the exact reverse in those cultures (i.e., you are expected to support and love your parents no matter what they do. Support being emotional and financial. Your kids? They’re on their own, and they better take you in when you’re elderly.)
I don’t know admit Buddhist culture, but it’s pretty much the worst thing you can do in Confucian culture. Like, Nicole level the worst.
In Buddhism, it’s one of the things that gets you placed in the deepest, worst part of Naraka (aka Hell).
All I know is when I go before the Yama Kings, I will ask to be returned to the Middle Kingdom as a blade of grass growing out of a crack in the sidewalk.
Could it be that the lack of stigma makes it easy for those contemplating suicide to talk about it, maybe get help?
I don’t think so. I think the lack of stigma removes part of the motivation.
Suicide is a social behavior.
Perhaps, but any sort of mental illness, anxiety, etc. is highly stigmatized in those cultures. No one wants to be seen as going to the “crazy doctor”.
That’s probably a large part of it. The suicides (or attempts) that I’ve been near to, have typically been cries for help or attention. If the only attention you would get is undesirable, then that demotivates the action.
I imagined it more like your drinking buddies talking you out of getting a face tattoo, than seeing a professional therapist.
If you are counting on that sort of behavior from a drinking buddy, avoid my friends. They would likely drive me to the tattoo artist and hand him money.
“Could it be that the lack of stigma around suicide in these cultures inhibits those seeking to punish and degrade themselves in the pits of utter despair?”
Apropos the greatest buddhist taboo being killing one’s parents. Since there is a lack of suicide stigma and a strong parent killing stigma, Are there relatively more parent killings than there otherwise would have been?
I doubt there is a way to answer that question, just interesting to think about.
It is interesting to think about. My instinct is to say that “suicide by cop” is more common, thus ‘running amok’, which also has its parallels in Thai and Lao culture as well.
Thoughtful and well-written piece, Q.
I also fall on the Restraintist side of this issue, but do not condemn as either immoral or necessarily stupid (assuming sincerity of intent).
Typo alert:
“If one really wanted to construct an ethical argument against slavery without referencing religion”
Should be:
“If one really wanted to construct an ethical argument against suicide without referencing religion”
It’s easy to construct ethical arguments against slavery using the NAP. Carry on.
*EDIT FAIRY BLESSES YOU*
Layers and layers of editors!
Self-ownership, however, would imply the ability to sell that ownership, and support at the very least, indentured servitude, if not semi-chattel slavery entered into by the subservient party. Say in exchange for covering an otherwise impossible debt.
I can see how you could sell yourself for a predetermined period of time and that not be slavery. A slave has no rights. If I sold myself into servitude, yet retained my other legal rights, that wouldn’t be that much different than being employed.
I think all contracts should have an “out” written into them with penalties clearly defined. You can sell yourself, but if you change your mind you have to pay a penalty. Like Amadeus.
All contracts do have an out. You can’t (okay, there may be some exceptions, but not in this case) be forced by the courts to perform the duties of the contract. You may have to pay a penalty, as you said, but you can always get out of the contract.
Professional athletes do it all the time w.r.t. employing their talents in a particular field.
Self-ownership, however, would imply the ability to sell that ownership,
The usual formulation is that the rights that flow from self-ownership are inalienable (that is, can’t be transferred, taken or surrendered). Thus, you can’t really sell yourself because you would retain all of your inherent rights.
The right of alienation is key to ownership. If you can’t sell it, you don’t own it.
I love this Edit Fairy.
Very thoughtful and well-considered, Q. Much appreciated
“…Although women are more likely to attempt suicide, approximately four times as many men succeed…”
That’s why there’s a pay gap.
“a gift from G-d and rejecting that gift is the ultimate contemptuous”
Any reason why I have to buy a vowel?
(((They))) don’t write god out.
Dammit! I was going to buy a ‘U’!
This is why I suck at games.
I don’t believe that is limited to (((them))) is it? Many old books feature that.
Q had a good article that talked about that a while back.
I don’t know. I’m not a theologian!
Th-olo-gian.
/I’m busting Q.
https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/0e04ba28d17734ddae2aefdd3a8660ed.jpg?quality=85&strip=info&w=600
Because (((Vanna))) is a cheapskate?
I’ve wondered about the suicide taboo and came to the conclusion we have a “living bias”. 3 billion years of fighting entropy have ingrained living for the sake of living in our DNA. As far as suicide being ethical, as long as they only off themselves, I don’t have a problem with it. Does it hurt others? Sure. But it’s impossible to go through life without hurting others.
“When it comes to suicide, I fall on the Restraintist side of the aisle. I strongly condemn it as both immoral and stupid.”
I agree. I never knew it, until I read your piece. It helped bring into focus things for me on the subject.
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle7.html
Damn, Q, this is the most serious and thoughtful thing published here. Well done.
Well, not including the Cocktail(s) of the Week.
Seriously, really well done, Q.
But what if one kills oneself to harm another individual? The “you’ll all miss me when I’m gone!” thing? Is the intentional infliction of grievous emotional harm aggression?
That’s where I went too; but ultimately I fall on the side of that not being an NAP violation mostly because I don’t like the unintended consequences of where it leads.
It’s definitely a dick move though.
I think that hurting one’s feelings is not an act of agression. If it is, then we are going to have get on the hate speech ban wagon.
Agreed
No… you blew it. You were supposed to reply “Yeah, well…. you are fat and stupid.”
C’mon man, what is the point of a comments section if you can’t post pointless joke responses to every serious comment.
The key is to land the joke response when it will have the greatest impact.
I’m still trying to figure out that part.
Well, this is a libertarian site, and is therefore entirely populated by hopeless nerds. So just pop in a reference to Monty Python, South Park, Sci-fi or computers and you are good to go. It doesn’t have to be objectively funny.
And since it is a comments section, there is no timing. You can just come back three days later and post a witty response as if you’d been quick enough to toss it off in real time. Sure, nobody will read it, but you can always remember that time when you came up with that great come-back, and since it is on the internet, nobody can take it away from you…
Since You won’t read this I’ll just say,
Fuck Off! 🙂
Sorry. I’m a very serious man.
*stifles chuckle*
I think it goes beyond “hurting one’s feelings”, which merely describes a difference of opinion.
Dating to break up?
You can make that argument about a lot of things, like drinking, doing drugs, sleeping around, and, if you’re a commie, making money. You have to get into the business of mind-reading to determine the motives for a person’s actions.
Also, by that logic, the morality of suicide depends on whether or not you have friends or family. Someone who has none can ethically off themselves, but someone who does cannot?
My point of view is this: If my SO decided to commit suicide, I would mourn, but would not lay blame, on her, or myself. But I think that’s an individual matter for everyone involved.
In this particular thought experiment, I’m asking what if the person directly says “I’m going to kill myself to hurt you.” Is that an instance of aggression if they go through with it?
I think it falls under emotional abuse. Is emotional abuse considered a NAP violation?
Typically, no. Aggression is seen as physical violence to prevent someone else from exercising their liberties or use of property. This gets murky in many areas, for example, when can I defend myself: when a person says I’m going to shoot you or when the person actually shoots? So, what I’m asking is if a person says they are going to kill themselves to inflict emotional pain on you, is that an act of aggression and is it ethical to use force to prevent the person from doing so?
it depends on the context in which the words are spoken. Unless they’re actually present, have a gun in easy reach/on hand, and are generally acting as though they might go through with it, you generally don’t have cause to initiate the firefight.
Not “you can’t kill yourself if I shoot you first” force, but taking away the implement with which they intend to inflict injury is within the realm of reasonable response.
I think emotional abuse is a violation of the NAP when the person being abused is a dependent. They can’t very well chose not to associate with the A-hole. Of course defining emotional abuse can be tricky
when a person says I’m going to shoot you
Ability, intent, and means. You’ve only described intent. You can’t shoot yet.
This is a hard one for me, because I spend a lot of time around mentally ill loved ones who emotionally abuse others, but can’t seem to help it. They know what they do is harmful and often regret it later, but can’t control the impulse at the time they do it. That experience has taught me that I need to not allow myself to be easily hurt in that way. It’s built up a certain emotional armor around me where I can distance myself from it as it’s happening and give them time to come to their senses. It’s never gotten to the level postulated here, and, hopefully never will. At that point, can you hold the mentally ill people responsible for their actions? I don’t want to know.
Excellent article Q. I agree that suicide is not a violation of the NAP in most cases.
I do wonder though if suicide violates NAP if you are a parent of small children that rely on you. Would the children’s welfare be aggressed?
A family friend had a BIL or cousin check out a few years ago. Left behind 2 or 3 small kids under the age of 7. He left his kids fucked. Primary breadwinner gone, I don’t think any life insurance. The sadness that his friends and family would have felt was overcome with anger at the situation he left them in.
Let me take the “wonder” back since I don’t see how it can be ethical to suicide if you have dependents relying on you that you have accepted responsibility for. On the opposite end, could be caring for an elderly parent with dementia or Alzheimer’s.
I was thinking along the same lines. Let’s say mom went straight from high school, to marriage, to housewife. Dad makes enough money to support the entire family. Dad offs himself. Now what the hell does mom do with kids to take care of and no job skills?
Great article Q. A top 5 for Glibs, for sure.
I had a Friend do that once upon a time, except he lives in Aztec, NM and is a Scumbag, same as being Dead IMO
He fucking Ditched his Kids
I wonder if that’s better or worse. Alive, the kids know Dad is around somewhere and just plain doesn’t give a shit. Dead, the kids have all sort of questions that they will never know the answer to.
Alive. A chip on the shoulder and some righteous hatred is way better than the mind-fuck of why.
Let’s say we agree that suicide violates the NAP. Seems kinda . . . pointless, since the person who commits suicide is, you know, dead. There’s a reason why suicide isn’t actually illegal. “Welp, he died unethically” seems profoundly unsatisfactory.
The interesting question is whether attempted suicide violates the NAP.
Thanks to all.
Recently I watched ‘Agnelli’. In the documentary, they explored Gianni’s relationship with his son Edouardo. Gianni was as close to real life James Bond as they came and loved to live life to its extremes whereas his son was more introverted and intellectual not really interested in jumping off helicopters into the sea for a thrill (I fall into that category. I see no point in risking life for a thrill. I get high on making zucchini fritti….anyway) and this dismayed his father who tended to ignore (which is a form of belittlement) – already he wasn’t exactly the world’s greatest dad and neither was the mother. By all accounts, this wounded the sensitive Edouardo culminating into his eventual suicide where he jumped off a 100 foot tower as if to say, according those interviewed, ‘see father? I do have courage’.
I think there’s something deeply tragic and theatrical (and some truth because I think someone wired like Edouardo would have taken a more ‘delicate’ route to suicide but he seemingly wanted to make a point) in this act. Imagine having to go to this length to prove a point to a father you wanted respect from?
It worked. It crushed Gianni.
Quite a documentary.
Ugh. Edoardo. Ugh.
A. I thought you cannukistanis were allowed to out “u”s wherever you wanted
B. Wiki says it was aBridge and that there is some controversy as to whether it was suicide.
B) True.
So, he landed on him?
And if you need to find a reason to live, you can always look at boobs on the internet.
Nice.
I have some up close and personal experience with this subject. I think you explored the dilemmas quite well and I agree wholeheartedly with your coda.
Thanks for writing this one.
Perhaps most pernicious, suicide seems to be contagious in that friends and family of people who have committed suicide are more likely to experience suicidal feelings and even carry it out.
As a adjunct to this, the Army saw a small jump in suicide rates when OIF/OEF went into full swing. The Army reacted to this with a sweeping ‘chain-teaching’ program that emphasized community support as a way to combat it. Wrapped up in those teaching, though was a message that the person committing suicide was a victim and their peers and leadership were at least partially to blame for the act.
Big surprise — Suicide went even higher, and the rate amongst people who hadn’t deployed exceeded those who had.
The media made a shit-show of military suicide rates as well, quietly ignoring that the rates still weren’t as high as the general public, when adjusted for similar demographics.
As to NAP… A significant number of people attempt/commit suicide with the thought of ‘I’ll show them/they’ll miss me when I’m gone’. An act of aggression.
A suicide in the Army was treated as a failure of leadership and community, and was therefore often an overt act of aggression by someone (usually temporarily) not in their right mind.
“What about if someone has dementia or schizophrenia and is imagining things that are objectively false which leads him to suicide?”
Why are you calling these edge cases?
I ask because I’m not so sure these types of suicides are as uncommon as they once were. Suicide rates are up and so are the rates of Vicodin and Anti-depressant prescriptions. Suicidal thoughts are known side-effects – take one too many and one can be in a state of temporary dementia (for lack of a better term). Correlation is not causation, but it is impossible to research beyond police statistics (which are unreliable, IMO).
Perhaps they aren’t edge cases, but I still think the general conclusion applies. Whether it’s depression itself or a drug that’s altering your brain chemistry, the result is the same.
That’s my take anyway.
What if I Gaslight you and get you to commit suicide? Am I a murderer?
Derivative
I’m thinking no. Regardless of how other people treat you, absent you holding a gun to my head and saying either I kill myself or you kill me, I think you still have to take responsibility for your own actions.
What if I get the chive to put sweaters on all their girls?
Braless? On a cold day? I’ll allow it. Once, only once.
No worries:
http://thechive.com/2017/11/23/sweater-weather/
One need only gaze at #3 to be cured of suicidal thoughts.
18, dayyyum
Speaking of sweaters – the USC Song Girls
A high quality, tight sweater can sometimes be better than a bikini.
Only sometimes though.
That might trigger more homicidal feelings than suicidal ones.
Not murderer. Just asshole deserving of social shunning.
Nah. It’s like that girl in Massachusetts who egged her boyfriend on when he was suicidal – she’s a reprehensible human being, but not a killer. He still had agency.
Yup. This isn’t something I generally tell anyone – my wife and my parents are the only people in my life who know but hey, none of you actually know me so what the hell – but in the fall of 1996, when I was not quite 20 years old, I was given presciptions for Adderall and an antidepressant (either Paxil or Zoloft, can’t remember which one now). The results were…..less than ideal. It made me a crazy person. I became extremely paranoid, convinced that my roommates were plotting against me. I had intrusive thoughts constantly that I could not seem to get out of my head. I started staying up for 2-3 days on end sometimes, and sleeping in my car when I did sleep. I sliced up my leg with a pocketknife in a fit of rage (still have the scars today). I stopped going to class and spent most of my time ranting online (the old wbs.net chat rooms, if anyone remembers that place). After a few months like that, I attempted suicide. A weakass, “cry for help” kind of attempt which I survived, but not a fun experience nonetheless. I was then involuntarily placed in a psych ward for a week, until I finally broke down and called my parents – they would only release me if my parents were picking me up. That was a helluva drive home, let me tell ya.
Anyway, point being – I went into a counselor’s office with basic mild depression, sadness about a lack of success with girls and just loneliness in general, and the pills they put me on turned me into a suicidal lunatic. I have not, and will NEVER, taken any sort of psychiatric drugs again. I learned to deal with my sadness and put it into the proper perspective as just an aspect of the ordinary human condition.
Antidepressants can be a literal life-saver for some people; however I agree that they are way overprescribed for mild depression and dysphoria. It’s serious business to start screwing around with cerebral neurotransmitters and, IMO, they should only be prescribed under strict, ongoing supervision of a psychiatrist; certainly not doled out by family doctors with no follow up.
Aren’t they intended for extremely short-term crisis mitigation. My sister had an experience similar to Chip’s – to the point where I would have wagered everything I had that she was going to kill herself. Once we got her away from the pill-crazy motherfucker who was treating her, she got off the meds and found a therapist who got her through.
I’m very negative about treating developing brains like this.
I’m very negative about treating developing brains like this.
My very thought about Adderal and other drugs to treat ADD, ADHD, etc.
Many of us here are into nootropics.
Fuck off, slaver!
My nootropic.
http://www.chrisblanc.org/blog/images/huffing_paint.png
In this case, I was seeing a psychologist. He referred me to a psychiatrist who wrote me the prescriptions. I saw the psychiatrist all of one time. We talked for maybe 20 minutes, he wrote the prescriptions, and I left. That was that. I continued to see the psychologist a couple more times before I quit going.
My wife has been kicking around the idea that our soon-to-be 8 y/o daughter might need to see some kind of therapist because of her volatile temper and frequent, hellacious tantrums. I’m uneasy about that idea because of my own experience, and I told her that while I might be amenable to therapy for her, I will not agree to drug my children.
Before you begin any kind of psychological/psychiatric therapy, go see this doctor. She runs an evidence-based practice, and I credit her with saving my son’s life. She is highly against the prescription of anti-depressants for kids and seeks to treat the underlying condition that may (or may not) be causing the psychological symptoms. She also will not treat if there is nothing to treat for and will let you know.
I too am highly against the prescription of antidepressants for kids!
I don’t think my daughter is autistic in any way, though. She interacts with other children just fine, and is a model student at school with no behavioral problems while there. At home, though, she is a fiercely stubborn girl who loses her mind at the slightest problem or difficulty. Every problem, no matter how minor, stands a good chance of triggering a screaming meltdown.
Some of this is, admittedly, probably learned behavior. I have a helluva temper. I don’t lose it constantly the way she does, but I’m sure it doesn’t help her when she sees her father occasionally get frustrated with something and either yell about it or slam it down. Still, my son is in the exact same environment but has none of her issues.
I live in mortal fear of what she’ll be like as a teenager.
If the behavior is situational as you say, then it’s probably not due to an underlying condition. I wish you luck. I’ve got two daughters of my own and I do not relish the upcoming teenage phase.
It somehow has to do with how close she is with the person supervising her. Her teachers have never had a problem with her. My wife’s friend has been babysitting my kids more and more, and she’s starting to see it now, whereas before I think she thought we were exaggerating when we’d lament how awful her behavior can be.
I love her so dearly – she’s very much a daddy’s girl because my wife is (I think) overly tough on her, so she naturally gravitates to me. I generally can get her to calm down in a way my wife seems unable to…..but I have had no success at getting her to stop melting down so much in the first place.
When we were visiting my aunt about two years ago, she got so furious about not wanting to put her shoes on and leave the house that she started just screaming nonstop. At that time, what we were trying was just ignoring her tantrums and going about our business as if we didn’t hear her. So we went out to the front lawn to throw a ball around with my son. The windows were open in the house and we could hear her continuing to scream (not crying, screaming) for no joke 25-30 minutes straight. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t been there. At this point, I don’t know what else to try. It seems like we’ve tried every approach possible.
My youngest son went through a similar period when he was ~7-8. Have you looked at any psychological evaluation symptoms checklists? We used this checklist:
http://www.joanborysenko.com/mind-body-balance/stress-reduction/psychological-symptoms-checklist/
I would verbally administer, describe the items, talk through “why” or whether a specific event was triggering the emotion, discuss strategies, log the totals, etc.
Rinse, repeat.
Ultimately, BOTH of my sons wanted to “do the checklist” whenever they were stressed (and later when they felt “good” b/c the scores improved).
QTIP (Quit Taking it Personally) along with relevant scenes from “What About Bob?” were key strategies.
I’m pretty sure by this point I would have offed myself had I not gotten on SSRIs. It wasn’t a matter of feeling sad as much as it was a pervasive, unending inability to be happy, enjoy things, or recognize my own successes.
By 24, I had been struggling with this for over a decade and it was getting worse. 9mm painkillers stopped being an occasional thought at my darkest moments and slowly crept into my daily life. Every failure, every minute of browsing the internet at work rather than working, every day I spent not working on improving my skills in some fashion was not something to learn from but further evidence that I was a worthless failure who couldn’t even manage to keep up with the most basic of life tasks, and that I was an anchor around the necks of people who cared about me.
A small dose of Sertraline (after I talked to my mother and found out that her whole family struggled with the same shit and it wasn’t, in fact, normal to never feel happy), and I could see clearly enough to recognize that my previous thinking was hideously distorted.
For me, SSRIs almost certainly saved my life and have enabled me to actually feel emotions again and enjoy the life I have.
A lot of what I read though has people saying that they felt like they couldn’t feel anything on them, and they suddenly had suicidal thoughts where before they had never had them, which is completely the opposite of my experience.
They’re a wonderfully useful class of drugs that are almost certainly overprescribed, and need a close eye to make sure they’re working as intended. Tossing them at someone who just feels sad on a temporary basis is like giving someone a claymore mine to remove a stump: it might work, or it could kill you. Getting the advice of someone with the appropriate expertise is at the very least the responsible course of action.
That’s a tough story, but I’m glad it’s got a happy ending. I look at antidepressants like antibiotics; incredibly effective when used appropriately, worse than useless when used inappropriately. Only a specialist (IMO) is capable of discerning appropriate from inappropriate.
The funny part (in a black sort of way) of the whole damn thing is that I have always had a pretty great life, but I just couldn’t see it at the time.
Anytime someone bitches about the greedy nature of drug companies I want to punch them in the throat. I pay about $40 every three months to be able to see how great the world is, and if it weren’t for the profit motive of those companies I’d (best case) still be totally incapable of that.
Adderall is basically meth. I can see it doing that to you. The no sleeping/paranoid delusions thing is very common among meth users.
And in my teenage years, I was given wellbutrin in an attempt to straighten me out. The cognate side effects were less than pleasant. I share your skepticism of psychiatric drugs. I’m sure they work well for some people, but they are not for me.
We were guardians of a teen-aged girl that was the post child for ADHD. She went from being a whirling dervish to a rational young lady that would read the paper and discuss current events. When the meds wore off about supper time, she was back to being a whirling dervish.
90% of the kids being medicated shouldn’t be medicated. It’s just a way to keep the kids quiet during their daily prison sentence. But the meds are a blessing to the kids that actually need it.
One thing I have made crystal clear to my wife is that if Lachowsky Jr. ever becomes a problem at school and the school recommends medication, Lachowsky Jr. will no longer be going to school. Be damned if I put my kid on medication because the state doesn’t like the way he’s acting. I’ll home school him myself and make my own judgements about whether or not his behavior is worthy of intervention.
In our case, we sought help. A psychiatrist specializing with teens had more than one meeting with the problem child before prescribing meds. This was followed up with bi-weekly meetings for more than a year.
At the same time, other parents discussed receiving letters from the school saying “medicate you kid or he/she is expelled. Oh, and truancy is still a crime.”
You wind up with lots of zombies in school and kids that need real help not getting it because of the backlash against over medicating kids. We received a significant amount of shit from other parents for medicating a kid that was duly diagnosed with AHDH by a trained physician and not a high school guidance counselor.
That sounds like the wise way to go. I’m not saying that I would never allow my little guy to be put on psychiatric drugs, I would just be extremely hesitant to and would exhaust many other options first.
I’m glad it worked out well for your daughter. That’s good.
Thanks for sharing.
My sister is on meds.
Yeah.
Anyway.
This is deep Q. I need a drink.
Here you go.
https://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/gallery/girls-gone-drinking/hot-girls-drinking-alcohol-21.jpg
Perfect
Nicely done, Q. And I’m in agreement with your final assessment. On my uncharitable days, I’d also add ‘cowardly’ to the list of words to describe it.
I see it as a Failure, No one get’s out alive, why cut it short? Back in the pot, Crab!
You don’t leave the party when the keg goes dry; you wait for someone to show up with some whiskey.
Appreciated your distinction between suicide and euthanasia. Where would you fall on someone who was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s offing themself
before the disease progressed to the stage where one’s memories and knowledge of loved-ones are gone?
Whether it would be considered suicide or euthanasia is probably up for debate. I’d say like any other choice to self-terminate, it’s a personal decision; but the person offing himself shouldn’t delude himself that it’s sparing his loved ones any pain. For all that person knows, his loved ones would relish any time they can get with him. That doesn’t mean he should be prevented from making the choice to end it, he should just go in with eyes wide open.
On a personal note, I’d be sorely tempted to eat lead if I were diagnosed with a fatal, degenerative disease like that. I don’t know what I’d do until in that situation though.
I am now 61. Alzheimer’s is the thing I really fear. A long tortuous death from cancer I can see getting through. Losing my mind, not so much.
My maternal grandfather was insane for about 10 years before he died. I think he would have been better off ending it before he lost his mind.
I don’t have a desire to be an insane old burden on people for the final years of my life.
I think it’s more acceptable as you age. If someone wants to spend their life savings and then end it, why not? The concerns over emotional harm are reduced (however slightly) and if the person doesn’t see a point going forward who am I to stop them by law?
Society shouldn’t necessarily promote it in our culture.
Confused by the lack of inert gas as a means of suicide. They use it for assisted, or are trying to. Wouldn’t mind seeing it as the standard for capital punishment, even though I don’t really think I agree with that.
I believe Oklahoma is about to start using a nitrogen chamber since they can no longer get the drugs for their lethal injections.
Nitrogen or a noble gas like helium would be the way to go.
Cheap. Easy to get. Clean.
No less painful for those still here. There lies the hard part of all this
I know an ME. She told me that helium is absolutely the way to go.
Death by party balloon
A little bit on the clowny side for me, but OK.
You’d go out sure sounding funny.
I have spent a fair amount of time thinking about this. There is no correct answer. You ask the proper questions; well done.
I will say that I don’t understand suicide. You get one life. Your time is limited anyway. I’m prone to bouts of depression, but outside of the chemically-influenced episode I related earlier, I can’t imagine just voluntarily putting an end to it.
If I ever did opt for early check out, I sure as Hell would not use a gun. There are other cleaner, less painful/stressful methods.
Like alcohol and carbon monoxide, or even a leisurely stroll in extreme cold. Or so I have heard.
After helium/nitrogen, I’d vote for alcohol mixed with benzos.
Also, using a gun, in the unlikely event that it fails, you will be seriously fucked up.
I have very strongly held views on this subject.
Everyone of you that holds differing views, particularly ones that deviate slightly from my positions, are obviously so morally defective as to be irredeemably evil.
There we go. This place was starting to feel like it wasn’t populated with libertarians with all of the calm discussion and lack of fractious disagreements. Finally we can get back to the true roots of libertarianism, which is that I’m the only real libertarian and the rest of you are wrong.
Salon is calling with a job offer…
My great-uncle (grandma’s little brother) was a good dude, and seems to have the key source of much of my immediate southern family’s penchant for dark-humor. He was in WWII and had a bum leg (not sure it came from combat) and liked to drink and tell dirty jokes.
I never knew him super-well, but whenever i did see him he was far easier for me to connect to as a young-kid than even my grandparents, who were prim and a bit snooty. I think they were slightly embarassed by their more-rednecky relations.
anyway, when i was like 12 or so, i saw him again and was enjoying his dirty jokes and inappropriate-stories, when someone asked about his health troubles, and he sad, “they’re going to resection my bowels” or something like that. And then he turned and looked at me and said, “kid, if i ever have to shit out of a bag in my gut, i’m just going to shoot myself and spare myself the indignity”. I laughed.
2 years later, he had surgery, and had to shit out of a bag strapped to his gut. so he shot himself.
I remarked at the time, “you know, the fact he told me it what he was going to do makes it seem OK.” My feeling was, “I liked that guy. He meant what he said.”
don’t know if this story has any point, other than, “not all suicides are the same”. Sometimes they’re just (shrug) What can you do?
My father has told me several times that he will off himself if he’s faced with living in an institution (meaning assisted living facility) or if he gets cancer. I don’t doubt him, I just asked him not to talk about it with his 7 year old granddaughter for chrissakes.
A lot of older people have outdated ideas about what assisted living facilities are. They are thinking old school nursing homes (which are still around and can be highly unpleasant). For assisted living, though, there are some very nice places out there if you know how to find the good ones. And have money, of course.
24/7 Caligulan decadence.
All hail the blue pill.
Cialis is the only way to go. More bang for the buck.
I will defer to your expertise; I’m not (currently) in the market, just thinking about how those drugs have transformed retirement homes into bone-zones.
I don’t think my father could tolerate being around other people that much. He has an extremely low threshold for putting up with stupidity.
But more importantly, I don’t think his pride and sense of independence could take it. He just couldn’t stomach being dependent on anyone other than my mother.
It also serves to demonstrate the diversity of human attitude and outlook. One man’s intolerable situation is another man’s *shrug*.
I suspect he wanted an excuse which would have sounded plausible (and manly) to his many already-dead friends.
I lost track of the thread where this was being discussed but I think a “you will miss me when I am gone” suicide is an immoral and aggressive act. But it doesn’t violate the NAP because I think there are acts of aggression that are immoral but do not warrant government intervention. I think the comparison to hurting feelings is unfair. It exist somewhere between hurt feelings and killing a 3RE party.
don’t know if this story has any point, other than, “not all suicides are the same”. Sometimes they’re just (shrug) What can you do?
Exactly. And you’re never going to get the most relevant version of the story.
I know an ME. She told me that helium is absolutely the way to go.
I have a bottle of argon, for the heliarc welder. That would probably get the job done.
I think the odds are not insignificant that I may kill myself if my health deteriorates enough. I have seen way too many people who are obviously miserable to a degree that is barely comprehensible, but are kept alive seemingly only to suffer by our health care system. My greatest fear isn’t coming down with cancer or a terminal disease, but of dementia or Alzheimers, something that would actually take away my ability to kill myself but leave me suffering with no hope.
As to the method, I’d probably blow get a ridiculously expensive bottle of Scotch, stockpile my pain meds, and pick my time and place to down the meds and the bottle.
This runs in my family on my father’s side. He is afraid of getting it, too–although his initial chosen method involved a shotgun.
(I pointed out to him that, while I would fully support his decision, I would not support this method as it does not account for the mental health of whoever would find him… likely my mother.)
It took me quite a long time to plan out my suicide.
Regardless of whether or not it can be “proven” that suicide is unethical, is is extremely rude. Perhaps supremely rude. Because of this, the only right way to do it is to 1) pick a time where the is nobody that will be hurt by you not being around (in my case, my parents would have actively looked for me if I disappeared, so I’d have had to wait until they were dead) and 2) nobody can find your body. #2 is particularly important if you have relatives who wouldn’t actively miss you because if your body were found and identified then they would be informed that you’d rather be dead than live in a world with them, and you’re back to being extremely rude. So there’s also 2a) of no identification with you in case you fuck up 2). 2) is really goddamned hard in North America. Anyplace you can go, other people can go. We don’t have any scavengers big enough to crack and consume human bones.
Fortunately, my parents lived long enough for me to make the decision to try antidepressants, and I haven’t hated living since then.
Very glad to hear that last part. Saved by meticulous courtesy.
My apologies if this has already been posted, but whatcha gonna do?
Also, if this appears insensitive, I should point out that I was actively suicidal for about 15 years of my life.
When it comes to suicide, I fall on the Restraintist side of the aisle. I strongly condemn it as both immoral and stupid. I recognize a person’s right to take himself out of the game, but I also reserve the right to call that person a moron making a terrible decision.
What is Libertarianism other than a recognition of the fact that people have the right to act immorally (or against what “I” would personally want for someone) without force being imposed on them?
Being a depressive and having lived through two (count ’em) two suicide attempts before 20, I see the point. Having found the bodies of three people near and dear to me changed my attitude somewhat. I still have the ideation lurking but the odds that I’ll act on it seem to be decreasing with age. That fucking black dog will never stop nipping at my heels. Good article!
I think we all knew this was coming to America aka New Salem.
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/04/19/time-get-rid-nfl-cheerleaders/
Please Don’t Kill Yourself https://youtu.be/ubAxMOlJ524