To start, I do not write from the perspective of an American. My country has more of a problem with emigration than immigration, and it is not out of the question that I might want to leave myself. So I can see myself on the other side of the border to many from the States. I live under a sort of double jurisdiction, Romania and the European Union, and of a nationality that has been often the object of attack and mockery as immigrants in Western Europe. We are all lazy thieves, beggars, gypsies, wanting to take both the good jobs and welfare of the British chav. I have been bullied on this very website by, to my greate shame, Canadians of all people. I am aware of the collectivist generalization most Western Europeans are prone to – despite the fact that without Eastern European doctors and nurses, their fabulous state medicine would have collapsed a while ago. And if you want trained doctors and engineers, some riff raff will inevitably come along. Although, after influxes of immigrants of late, Romanians no longer seem so bad.
I am a reasonably moderate libertarian, in that I am a bit of minarchist plus. So I do not write or think from an an-cap perspective. I am also the kind of libertarian who believes you have to advocate for both ethical, principled libertarian positions – regardless of their chance of being implemented – and policies that are fit for purpose, good enough, and move things to the right direction while being more palatable to others. I see little point to the “Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus” of libertarians, purity to the exclusion of everything else, who only recite philosophy and ignore the real world. And I am well aware of the danger of compromise but find it acceptable when the alternative is nothing. To complete, I am not a nationalist, I am not a patriot and dislike patriotism in most cases, and I do not feel any particular affinity for certain people over others just because there is a border between us. I can see I have more in common with the fine people on this fair website than with the vast majority of Romanians.
So I am starting with what I consider to be some basic facts: states and governments exist. Debating whether they should is meaningless at this certain point in time, for the purpose of this discussion. These governments have jurisdiction over state borders and have citizens and residents and temporary visitors, with the former having additional prerogative and responsibilities, especially in politics. Governments more or less (usually less) are – should be, to be more accurate – accountable to the citizens. Governments, having jurisdiction inside certain borders, have powers over and responsibilities towards people inside those borders. The US government should uphold the rights of people – including temporary visitors – in areas it has jurisdiction over – by libertarian standards this is its only job – and not the people of, say, Romania. The exceptions to this are American citizen abroad, towards which the government has certain responsibilities.
So a government treats insiders differently than outsiders. The question at hand is in what way the latter should become the former. Has government the right to control who crosses the border? My view is yes, up to a point.
The most often libertarian view for open borders is, paraphrased, the state has no right to impede peaceful people from traveling where ever they wish on public property, and to where ever they are invited on private property. The state has no right to stop people from freely associating. It is the right of humans to travel where they choose. Or to go bleeding heart about it (which I do not recommend), we should care more about humans than borders.
This is all very feel-good, but has some issues, in my view. I would in first instance. replace people with people under the jurisdiction of said state. In my view when talking about rights – freedom of speech, assembly, religion in the context of government – we are talking first and foremost people who happen to be within those border. In a better, non-interventionist world, government should not be able to influence non-residents, outside letting them in or not.
From a pure libertarian an-cap / minarchist point of view, many immigration issues would not be issues at all. With most property private and fully protected, the issues of public lands / areas would be minimal. With no government support at all for immigrants and refugees and with the perspective of being shot if you aggress the locals, a good number of problems would not appear. But that is not the world we live in.
There are several utilitarian reasons for some immigration restrictions. There is a risk posed by a large number of people with radically different values moving into an area, if these values can lead to breaking the Law. Any area has limited capacity to absorb newcomers and exceeding this will cause conflict. Police doing their job plus an armed citizenry could be a reason this problem would not appear in certain societies, but overall it can be unpleasant to have constant conflict in a community that needs to be addresses with violence. How about deontological ones?
Libertarians who do not want to become caricatures understand liberty is not defined as do whatever you want, but within limits. First and foremost, your fist my nose, as the saying goes, but even beyond, there are certain elements of living in a society that will curtail liberty – just the difficulty of defining boundaries between my liberty and yours, and compromises necessary to live in a community.
The libertarian argument is this should be as little as possible and for very good reason. It is, of course, a vulnerable argument, like all arguments in politics – where to draw the line. (Bugs step over this line.) This always applies to human dealings and there should be a constant attempt to swing things in libertarian direction, err on the side of freedom and all that. Even anarchic communities have rules about behaviour, written or not, and probably debate them. But in the end, the community needs a very good reason for any intervention. That is the basic argument.
I usually ignore the every square inch of land privately owned school of libertarianism. This is not the case. Not how humans function. Commons always exist, the village green was rarely privately owned, many roads and lanes likewise.
While no libertarian would deny the right to associate on your property – as long as you are not doing something to affect others’ property – you will not have an immigrant solely on your property (except that 15 year old Russian girl you buy on the dark web and keep in your basement, but this is an exception). The community will have a role in deciding what happens in the commons. So unless you can teleport people onto your private property and then teleport them away, immigration will not be a solely private property issue.
Similarly there is not always an absolute right of free association. I cannot associate with convicted murderers whenever I choose. So here I go back to an earlier paragraph “the state has no right to impede peaceful people from traveling where ever they wish”. So I would say a state can at the very least restrict access to non-peaceful people.
I talked above about Romanians in Europe. To be completely fair, plenty of Romanians went West with mischief on their minds and some locals were rightfully annoyed. Especially in small towns and villages in which people were not used to rude, loud foreigners making a mess and stealing whatever they can. Romanians eating sunflower seeds and drinking beer on the street while spiting the seed husks is not something a Swiss mountain town wants to see – although these can be mere tourists, not immigrants. So the problem here can be simply of generalizing immigrants, not all immigrants. Some Romanians are, I assume, good people.
So I can say that a government may restrict access of people with high probability to engage in violent or illegal acts, or deport those who do engage. Another class of people with restricted access beyond the violent may be the very diseased. A government may refuse access to people with dangerous, contagious diseases.
I find it difficult to make the freedom of association argument for completely open borders, let any and all in just in case I might want to associate with one of them. One solution to the freedom of association standard might be a resident should vouch for immigrants he want to associate with, a member of community with skin in the game and possibility of redress of wrongdoing.
In a world of government welfare – which I am not happy about the locals getting but there at least is some limit to them – and in which government does not properly protect the locals from immigrants, open immigration will not work. A main argument against this along the lines of two wrongs do not make a make right argument, or just because we have welfare does not mean we should restrict immigration. I do not agree with this argument. If a needs b to work, then you can’t have a before b, is my view. So yes, in libertopia immigration self regulates. To a point. Rapist and thieves may want to come anyway, but they would be dealt with without all the politics involved in current governments. We do not live in libertopia.
To be clear, I am not saying build a wall or kick all immigrants out. I am for as much immigration as possible within limits of safety, with some clear rules. No criminals would be a basic one. You cannot really bring the thieves of the world to your country. It is not in order to protect jobs, not racial or cultural purity. Just keeping a certain control of dangerous criminal elements is not too much to ask. You can still get all the good people you need while restricting the very violent. And I would also add no government aid to new immigrants for at least a couple of years in which they earn income and pay taxes. Giving no aid at all is not an option.
Ok, thoughts? Let me have it in the comments. (I did write this post because my last few were kind of light on the comments, and it is sort of an experiment to see if I can get an good old fashioned argument going like on you know which site.)
“I have been bullied on this very website by, to my greate shame, Canadians of all people.”
Wait… wut? You take Canadians seriously? Ok, that there alone is enough to let any American know you ain’t one of us.
No, seriously?
That’s horrible. Being shamed by Canadians would be pretty traumatic.
It’s not something I would ever admit to.
“I am a reasonably moderate libertarian”
NO! There’s only one kind of libertarian, you’re for us or against us! Now get in line and conform!
I am just more smarter than you lot
Learn to talk like a real Murikan and maybe we’ll let you in.
It’s ‘I is moar smarterer than u’.
“I are moar smarter!”
HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS!
I am just more smarter than you lot
Are you a late night talk show host?
Ok, thoughts? Let me have it in the comments. (I did write this post because my last few were kind of light on the comments, and it is sort of an experiment to see if I can get an good old fashioned argument going like on you know which site.)
FUCK YOU!!! Your position is (cuck cosmotarian / conservatard) and why do you even post on this site!!!
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
There’s a taste of the old country you were hoping to bring in here.
Hey libertarianism is on the spectrum yoi know
NO FUCK YOU!! You are the cuck cosmotarian/conservatard!! My way is best!
PIE HAS BEEN TULPA ALL ALONG!
What is the situation with illegal aliens over there? Do you have anyone sneaking in, or is everyone just sneaking out?
We had afgans sneaking in and then they cried when they found out they were on Romania and not Slovenia which is what their guide promissed. Right now we have no immigration issues in Romania. No one sneaks out as we are EU. Also now or soon we can also go to Canadia visa free although ypu have to do an electronic thing online before
Do the vampires like refugee blood? Put me on the border.
Did they at least bring blankets?
Pizza casserole is the bee’s knees, y’all.
Last night I made crustless ham and cheese quiche.
4 Eggs
8 oz Ham, diced
8 oz Cheddar cheese, grated
Preheat oven to 350.
Break eggs into bowl. Whisk eggs until scrambled. Ass ham and cheese, mix thoroughly.
Grease 8-inch square pan.
Pour mix into pan, distribute evenly.
Bake until cheese is browned and there are no signs of raw egg.
Remove and let cool to safe handling temperature. cut and serve.
“Ass ham,” you say? Go on…
😉
That does sound delicious, though.
It’s my poor typing skils.
But to be fair, the ham cut is the ass end of the pig.
I had steak and eggs last night because I was feeling lazy. Best part? Steak and eggs tonight, too, since there were two in a package.
I’ll be baking cookies tonight. There are too many eggs in a half dozen for the amount of cookies I needed, so I made the dish above.
Cookies sound magnificent, but I’m definitely not making any while Mr. Riven is out of town.
Maybe to celebrate when he comes back, though! 🙂
Is it Mexican Ass ham?
Do you cook the Mexican ass ham in a pot?
Sounds like a frittata.
It was “What can I cook with what I’ve got?”
Traditional quiche is one of the few foods I hate no matter how well prepared. It’s a pie made of eggs and spinach. *gags*
The other thing that comes to mind as an instant downvote is anything with Dijon mustard in it. *dry heaves just thinking about it*
Do you see any spinach in there?
I essentially baked a ham and cheese scramble.
Sorry, went off on a tangent. To be clear, yours sounds delicious. It would probably still be fine with spinach. I gag when thinking about traditional quiche.
Isn’t that basically a frittata?
I don’t know. Beyond having heard the word before I don’t know anything about the term.
Frittata = Baked omelette. Italian in origin.
Yes, a quiche is a savory custard that traditionally is made with a half a cup of cream/milk/halfandhalf per egg. A baked scrambled egg has different names depending on where you are standing, and frittata as as good as any of them. Better, in fact, since a Spaniard might call that a tortilla.
Anyway, the addition of the cream significantly changes the texture. A frittata has a spongey structure just like regular scrambled eggs in a skillet. A quiche has a smooth texture like any custard. A good quiche might even flow a little bit if you press on it with the back of your spoon. A good frittata will always shear.
“I have been bullied on this very website by, to my great shame, Canadians of all people.”
This is disgraceful. Canadians should know their place.
Canada is the Nick Gillespie of North America.
Damn. What does that make Mexico?
I’m afraid it’s one of the shrieking trolls at the moment. It’s not in the greatest shape.
“The most often libertarian view for open borders is, paraphrased, the state has no right to impede peaceful people from traveling where ever they wish on public property, and to where ever they are invited on private property.”
I often find it strange that the people who make this purist position are also the ones who take the least pure position when it comes to free speech, gun rights, religious liberty, etc.
I’m looking at you, Niskaan Institute
Also, good article, Pie. I tend to agree with your position: more immigration is best, but we should be allowed to forbid criminals from entering the country. The idea of completely open borders is fanciful and delusional.
The question is, how do we best control the flow of immigrants? I mean I think we should have very few restrictions, but the ones we do need to keep out how do we achieve it? Basically, do we need to build a wall but just put a very large door in it?
Well one extreme way would be no wall easy to get in shoot on site if trying to sneak in. If it is easy to get in no reason to sneak in. I do not support this but it is a way. Or get deported in 24 hours if you came outside the law.
Collect the bones of the migrants who died trying to get in and line the wall with skulls.
Use the Romanian method and impale their bodies on poles all along the border
$10,000 fine for employing an illegal and 1/2 goes to the rat.
That low?
It scales. If you own a farm that uses 100 illegal immigrants you pay 10 million in fines and the rat gets 5 million. If you hire 3 guys to do your roof and get caught, 30k, 15 to the rat, comrade.
Also the fines pay for the organization responsible for deporting the immigrants.
Minefields are an excellent way to control flow, are inexpensive, humane, and environmentally friendly.
If not properly patrolled, and replenished, they will be depleted/cleared over time.
I prefer multiple walls, minefields and active killzones with sentry guns that shoot anything in their field of fire. The below-ground defenses to prevent tunnelling will be a bit more difficult to implement.
You lost me at “humane”. Mines are many things, but they aren’t humane. The most common outcomes for mines are permanent paraplegia, if medical care is immediately available, or slow painful death by bleeding out, if it’s not.
Also, while long-term minefields may result in areas of “unspoiled nature” developing, they’re still harmful to anything larger than a cat, and that also creates the necessity for humans to enter the area and replace the mines, which becomes more dangerous the less often the minefield is cleared of overgrowth.
I’m don’t think there’s such as impermanent paraplegia, so you can strike that unnecessary adjective.
That depends on how you define it. Do you consider prosthetics and cybernetics to be a cure or a treatment?
They recently managed to make fat cells grow bone, so it won’t be all that long before we can think about growing or assembling complete limbs.
Maybe about the time we have commercial Fusion.
I’m looking forward to turning 50 or 60 pounds of this abdominal fat into a hard, bony carapace.
You’d prefer that the outcome in all cases be death where weapons are employed? Mines are a perfectly humane weapon. They may be employed in an inhumane fashion, for example an unmarked minefield. In the context of border control, an unmarked minefield defeats the very purpose. What is more humane than a weapon any individual can avoid by exercising free choice?
While I have no love of our current immigration policy, its general lack of killing and maiming (trigger-happy unaccountable cops notwithstanding) is one of its apparently unnoticed strengths. A wall doesn’t kill anybody (harsh weather and lack of preparation notwithstanding) and neither does deportation. Not as effective as a minefield, perhaps, but also not nearly as destructive. Even a temporary holding camp with basic food, water, and shelter for people pending removal is vastly more humane than a minefield.
A minefield may be a far better deterrent but that is not the quality we’re discussing here.
As far as I understand we are discussing whether a particular weapon system is inherently humane or inhumane. The point about walls is a non-sequeter.
For the purpose of this debate I’m also assuming that all weapons kill and I have gathered from your argument the defining characteristic of whether a weapon is humane or not is the effect of the weapon on the target. Extending that argument I presume instant death without pain is humane where slow painful death from bleeding out is inhumane. If this is the case a threshold issue exists: How is the weapon employed?
A firearm is humane if the operator employs the weapon to the basal ganglia, it is inhumane if applied to the dick. This threshold issue indicates that ‘humanity’ is not a property inherent to the weapon system but to the operator and the analysis ought to begin with how is the weapon employed by the operator.
I advance that mines are humane because they may be employed in a humane manner whereby targets may self select the effects of the weapon. For practically all other weapon systems, the effect is governed by the operator and not the target.
I feel that you’ve shifted the discussion from “way to control flow [of people]” to “weapons system”. The latter discussion is a different one than I thought I was having.
“You lost me at “humane”. Mines are many things, but they aren’t humane.”
This is the point I was responding to – your argument that mines are not humane.
None of the other arguments in your reply are facially related to the central point that mines are “an excellent way to control flow [of people].” That is, unless, you presume the qualities of ‘humanity,’ ‘harmfulness to things larger than cats,’ and ‘relative danger of periodic maintenance’ are related to whether a thing is “an excellent way to control flow [of people].” If so, then the discussion of whether mines are humane is related to the central point.
There will always be people who try to subvert the system. Climb over the wall, navigate the minefield, sneak through an unguarded pass. Some of these do not inherently result in death or serious injury. Hell, a guarded wall has the same functional characteristics as a minefield but doesn’t endanger anyone who needs to maintain it, and people who attempt to subvert it can usually be apprehended without maiming or death.
Ok, lets presume all of that is true. What are you arguing?
Mines are not humane. I both described the nasty effects of mines and provided examples of alternate ways to control the flow of people that don’t have those effects.
Ok, then I think we are having the same discussion and I understand your augment to be of the form:
1) Weapons may be humane or inhumane.
2) Whether a weapon is humane is determined by whether the weapon has caused a nasty effect on a target.
3) We presume mines are weapon.
4) We presume permanent paraplegia is a nasty effect.
5) We observe mines produce permanent paraplegia.
6) Therefore – Mines are inhumane.
My above arguments tend to refute points 1 and 2 by attacking the central premise, by attacking causation, and by quantifying the nature of the target. What further support do you offer to advance your argument?
1. The goal, for the sake of argument, is to control the flow of people.
2. Weapons, like mines, are a tool to the end of that goal, but not the only or most important tool.
3. Other “tools”, like walls, gates, detention, and deportation, can be considered.
4. Those tools, depending on how they are used, do not inflict the same level of injury or incur the same risk of death as mines when used.
5. As such, the use of mines as incurs a unique and avoidable risk of injury and/or death as compared to the other tools.
6. When used as the primary tool to control the flow of people, mines escalate the level of force from “necessary to effect the goal” to “brutally and aggressively effecting the goal”.
7. That, in context, makes their use, for this end, inhumane.
Ok, so we agree mines are an excellent way to control flow, are inexpensive, humane [mines qua weapons], and environmentally friendly.
I now understand your argument to be:
1) Flow control of people is a function of force.
2) Humanity is a function of the delta between the applied force and the ideal force to drive the response function.
4) Therefore – To maximize humanity for an arbitrary flow control threshold, the minimum force should be applied to drive the response function.
Is this an appropriate summation?
Goddammit, I didn’t realize this was going to be an engineering test.
That… seems right. An exception that immediately comes to mind, though, would be cases where the “ideal force” is already at the threshold of inhumane and thus there’s no way to drive the desired response without being inhumane (e.g. genocide).
Sorry, don’t mean to make it an engineering test, it’s just how I model things if I am to fully understand them. Part of that is ensuring that outcomes are repeatable for any given decision-making system. Your point about the ideal force being at or above the threshold is well received. I tend to engage in limit condition analysis to test most models. Without formally qualifying things, I’ll advance that the ideal force to close borders is death and death is inherently inhumane. Operationally we see this already and, if the government has determined that death is the ideal force (vis. armed officers, military etc.), we should be unconcerned with the manner and only the economic costs in applying force.
More Crumbs
How many children will this one kill?
I went to high school with him. He’s actually not too bad. Back when he was secretary of state in Indiana, he revamped the DMV, and to this day you can still get in and out of the DMV in like 15 minutes.
He privatized the DMV? Cool.
The governor of IN did, whoever it was at that time.
Yeah, I remember the DMV in Indiana when every time I’d go, there would be a line of people outside around the block and you’d be there all day. After they privatized, the first time I went, I was the only person there and I was in there less than 10 minutes.
I’m sick with envy. I spent 4 hrs, 20 min. at the DMV yesterday, had to miss most all of work. It took half an hour of waiting in line outside, just to get inside & get a number. And this is in Texas, mind you, not some coastal state with a dem lockdown on the statehouse.
The one in Hong Kong was a marvel of efficiency, and it wasn’t just a DMV, it was a service hub for almost all local gov’t needs.
So, a DMV.
…no. At our local DMV you can’t do everything from residential zoning, business permits, and visa/passport registration, all of which could be done at the center we went to in HK.
Not sure what DMV you’ve been using.
Those don’t sound like things needed from the local government.
Visa registration isn’t a local government function. Neither zoning nor business permitting are needed.
The center handled PRC business (at least insofar as the visa/passport deal), as well as other functions that are only city business. If you’re really trying to start an argument by saying, “Well ACKSHUALLY you shouldn’t have said local gov’t business since even though it is a hub of local government one of the examples you gave was national business, even though you handled it at the local gov’t center it made your statement TECHNICALLY INCORRECT”, then I suppose I’ll concede that argument to you.
Not sure what you mean by, “neither zoning nor business permitting are needed”. I assume you don’t mean to say that such things are never needed by anyone, so perhaps you could clarify that point.
Zoning – A landholder should be able to do with their property as they please until and unless something leaves the boundaries of their property (causing heavy runoff to be directed into a neighbor’s yard, etc)
Permitting – There is no reason why a person should not be able to declare “I am now in business”, acquire whatever capital is required and begin operating. Having to go “please sir, may I start a business” is unconscionable.
Um, from a theoretical standpooint, I agree with you.
However, we were not discussing libertopia. We were discussing the services that are provided at a local gov’t center in HK (specifically that it combines the offices of DMV along with several others), which are not provided at the DMV in Texas. So no, it is not factually accurate to state that the one in HK I was describing is just like the DMVs here, which your initial reply to me seemed to be saying.
Hong Kong’s land-rights have always been a little ‘different’ – even before the British lease expired.
Assuming the PRC still abide by the original set of agreements when the British left, every damn square inch of HK and parts of the Territories are leased from the PRC. No freehold whatsoever (although foreign legations, I think, do have what amounts to a freehold).
Culturally too, the Hong Kongers are anxious to make sure they do have the right to dwell on land they’re inhabiting, hence zoning and leases will be very close to their hearts, bless them.
I spent 2 days trying to get Xfinity/Comcast to connect my internet. The good news is I was able to fire them and get my money back. Not so much with the DMV.
::scoff::
None, that’s why I was able to get my money back. Also why I consider all forced interactions immoral.
Must have been some serious idiots then trying to do that work. Connecting someone to infrastructure these days is as simple as doing some modem configurations….
They didn’t bother to show up for two appointments, so I fired them.
Yeah that is just plain fucking annoying when they constantly run those commercials about how much they love their customers and the lengths they go to service them. They must mean service them like bulls service cows…
That’s because the privatization caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
You are correct – welfare states and open borders do not mix. You can have one or the other but not both unless you want an invasion.
I’ve grown biased and skeptical in my age regarding anything above a trickle of Muslim immigrants. There is just no history of it ending well anywhere ever.
“You are correct – welfare states and open borders do not mix. You can have one or the other but not both unless you want an invasion.”
SO MUCH THIS!
Whenever I hear some asshole talk about immigration when America was young and how it made America great, I remind them we had no welfare state, so people that came here, came to work hard and make the American dream happen. While I am sure there are some illegals, maybe as many as half of them, that are here to work, the issue is the ones that are here to suck at the government’s teat. That is why I think the DACA deal should exclude citizenship for people that are on welfare or spent most of their time here on assistance.
Relevant:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/456393/irs-policy-targets-us-passports-congress-should-reverse-it
Another reason to not be a US citizen.
They already do this for various other reasons.
If I have a right to travel, why do I need a passport?
Armed groups of foreigners might not recognize that right, without a passport?
I view my passport less as permission to travel but the proof to my friendly armed agents overseas that they’re supposed to help be skeddadle back home again.
Got my renewed NY DL today. It says “Not for Federal Purposes” on it. Yay. We’ve reached the point of internal passports now.
Papierien, bitte.
If I were supreme overlord, I would just simplify the immigration process.
For females: ‘Enclose 10 nekked photos of yourself in this pre-paid mailer’.
For males, answer the following questions:
1. Will you ever vote for a Democrat?
2. Do you think socialism is a good thing?
3. Do you like deep dish pizza or pizza with pineapple on it?
4. Do you have experience working as orphan overseer?
5. Do you often wear a tophat and monocle?
Answering yes to 1 or 2 is a lifetime ban
Answering yes to 3 is a 5 year ban, after which you may re-apply.
If the answer to the first 3 question was no, and 4 and 5 was answered true, you’re in.
What’s the penalty for lying?
We send you to Canada.
If I were Supreme Overlord #1 would be a moot point because there would be none.
No voting?
/probably what I’d do.
Yes. I would appoint people to appoint people. And those who displeased me would be dealt with quickly and severely.
Moooaahaaaahaaaa!
Before any of you mock our southern neighbors for spotting Jesus in a taco shell, remember that Florida Man is just as embarrassing.
Cheeto Jeebus!
What TOS pointedly ignores in their arguments (including the one they just posted) is society. Western civilization / society is the only one to have ever even floated the idea of “liberty” and “rights”. These are completely foreign concepts to most other societies and run absolutely contrary to the core beliefs of many. Invite in enough of those people and the concept of liberty will as lost and forgotten here as everywhere else.
These are also foreign concepts in every American public school I’ve had the displeasure of being in.
This is my issue. The vast majority of people wanting to come here are not libertarians.
I agree, but it’s been that way since 1492. A few rabble rousers like Jefferson, Franklin, etc. might have cared about liberty, but even then people of that mindset only made up 2% of the population. They just happened to succeed once.
A lot of immigrants not only hold the belief that religion and the state should be one and the same, they cannot conceptualize the idea that they could be separate. This has caused a lot of problems with certain immigrant groups.
Romania still has less medals than the USA.
Fewer.
Less too. The Romanian winners clipped the edges off the medals to sell for a profit.
Short sighted fools.
They should have used the medals to cast a replica mold and sold counterfeit medals as if they were the original.
See? Natural entrepreneurs.
More Romanians!!
I bet if he said it in French the grammar would have been correct
Les Medals?
Are the French even in the Olympics? It just occurred to me I haven’t seen a French athlete yet.
They’re in, but they keep forfeiting before every competition
They are too busy waving the white flag while eating cheese?
/cross checks Tundra in the back and gives a Marchand elbow to the head.
Stannis, is that you?
last i looked Romania had 5 gold 3 silver 6 bronze. How many does USA have?
At least…3 times as many!
Waaay more!
Romania medal count.
Pie must have been giving us Romania’s all-time total
Either that or Pie has turned into the “Baghdad Bob” of Romania.
No, he’s been counting those they managed to nick off of other compeditors after the awards ceremony.
Thanks for the article, Pie. Sorry about the Canucks. One of these days, we’ll just annex them and you can be mayor of Winnipeg. Dress warm.
My great grandfathers were immigrants, one from Italy, one from Scotland. Naturally, there was no assistance of any kind for them (unless you count absurd levels of xenophobia ‘assistance’).
Both came for the opportunity, stayed for the freedom and both were extremely successful. I know a great many immigrants and have a sincere appreciation for the balls it takes to start over somewhere new. I think they make us better.
I’m not convinced that welfare is necessarily the whole problem today, though. Back when my people came over, they were treated like shit, but the barriers to starting a business were miniscule. Now, the deck is stacked against immigrants (nail salon licensing, anyone?). So, let’s cut back on welfare, but let’s also make it easier for motivated immigrants to make some sweet, sweet dollars.
And the welfare state is probably a weaker argument against immigration, in my opinion.
When my parents came over in the late 20th Century, legal immigrants were forbidden from accessing welfare programs. The person who sponsored your arrival also had to guarantee that they would support you financially, if need be. Unless those rules have been loosened recently (which is very much a possibility), I think the bigger concern should be that we have people coming here outside of the normal process and we have no idea what their background is. We should increase legal immigration, if need be, but we cannot allow illegally immigration to continue.
We should increase legal immigration, if need be, but we cannot allow illegally immigration to continue.
Yep.
that is probably part of the reason North America has much higher employment for immigrants that Europe.
Those were the rules when I applied for a green card in 1995.
Also: green cards are actually pink.
Next you’re gonna tell me that pink slips are actually white.
‘Real’ Green Cards are pink
My ‘Bullshit Green Card’ (the temporary one you initially get) was white.
A part of the welfare problem you’re missing is that immigrants don’t have to receive welfare to make the welfare problem worse. Immigrants do jobs that Americans are often unwilling to do. They contribute to the economy and pay pax that help prop up the welfare checks of non immigrants who outside of their being a welfare option would be doing those jobs.
Thus isn’t a they took our jobs argument. The fact that welfare exists allows for citizens to do nothing while immigrants pick up their slack. Absent the welfare state, citizens would be forced to work those jobs they think beneath them.
Most welfare, especially if it is not help given to productive people when they are in trouble, produces negative incentives. I have had many conversation with welfare state proponents where they accused me of being heartless and of advocating for no welfare whatsoever, when what I say we need is a system that supports the productive when they have a life crisis, instead of a system that rewards people that do nothing in return for votes.
I used to feel this way, but I’ve come to accept the fact that there are people who simply cannot produce enough or provide the value necessary to support themselves at a level that generally is considered acceptable. For these people: welfare. Is it inefficient? Yeah. Is it basically stealing from productive people to support unproductive people? Yeah. But it’s a relatively cheap and practical solution to the problem.
Welfare while they work is not the same as welfare while they sit on their ass and just collect, and the system today is rigged to punish people that want to work but lack the ability to do anything that pays well and reward the ones that just opt out. My epiphany came when some 2 decades ago I watched some show where they were harassing this lady for having 9 kids and being on welfare, and she calmly broke down her income from welfare vs. that when she worked. If I was in her place I would have done what she did too.
Incentives…how do they work?
For these people:
welfarecharity.Welfare is forced charity. I’d love for charity to take the place of government provided welfare, I just don’t see it as practical. Honestly the current welfare system is a good compromise: meager payoffs to those unable or unwilling to support themselves probably prevent them from trying to seize and upend the entire system so that they can loot it and “punish” more productive people. If there’s one thing that history has taught us, it’s how productive very lazy people can quickly become when they realize they can steal other people’s stuff.
Welfare, in its broadest definition, includes all kinds of things that provide perverse incentives. It’s a system that is regularly gamed. Disability fraud is a huge thing. There is an entire sector of our economy that instead of doing something productive is devoted to enrolling people on the disability rolls. For direct welfare, it is common as dirt for women to not marry their baby’s daddy’s so that their kids daddy can work amd the woman can still draw subsidized housing, wic, stamps, etc. There is an enormous amount of abuse that occurs simply because the system exists. Not to mention it is immoral to steal people’s money and give it to others.
Agreed on all counts. Necessary evils are still evil.
I know people in Winnipeg. Does not sound fun. I don’t think for me you could even say it compensates in summer if i recall correctly it is very lfat land and I dont much like flat land. Also the big lake thing is not even that close to the city.
Once you arrive, you can steal some horses and migrate to warmer and more mountainous climes.
i don’t remember which province but there was a Canadian joke about weathering your dog run away for 3 days. Or was it American?
I don’t get it.
it was watching i don’t know where weathering came from. I am not sure myself but the idea was that the land is so flat, you can see far away. I don’t remember the particulars
google found me this
Only in Saskatchewan can you sit on the front porch and watch your dog run away for two days.
from
http://www.canadaka.net/forums/canadian-humour-f13/jokes-about-saskatchewan-t11659.html
Some parts of Alberta (one of the few areas of Canada I’ve been) were very flat.
I’ve heard that joke in reference to any of the US Plains states as well.
Speaking of Saskatchewan it does not sound great. brrr
6 cold weather records broken in Sask. on Monday
Val Marie dipped down to –43.6 C
Now it makes sense.
http://i.pinimg.com/236x/8f/66/14/8f6614e2a8b8acf8d2596d4fcc322a81.jpg
Little known is, Italians (and Ukrainians and Germans) were thrown in internment camps or put under strict curfew in various places on the continent. Though not as organized and in drastic numbers as the Japanese, still it numbered in the thousands and destroyed enough families.
The barriers to starting a business ARE welfare. You think welfare is just for the poor?
I think I hate corporate welfare more than I do social welfare.
Well, that’s very true. Good catch.
Bingo, IF. When I say I want the welfare state killed, that’s a huge part of it.
No Irish!
“You cannot really bring the thieves of the world to your country.”
Justin Trudeau disagrees. In fact, he’ll match that and raise you this: He recently defended his ISIS reintegration policy by comparing it to Italian, Greek and Portuguese immigration. Adding the Italians faced discrimination for their dress and religion too.
It’s totes the same thing.
The parallel only works if the government ignored the crimes of la cosa nostra and actively rewarded their members.
Even then.
And ‘Ndrangheta consumes Cosa Nostra as a digestivo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta
Or the Camorra
Naples. Pft.
Show us your Naples!
Where’s Swiss anyway?
Probably closer to Turin than Naples.
*narrows gaze*
Rufus, the Swiss have really been flogging a lot of work out of me lately.
Kingdom of Two Sicilies For Lyf!
I have no quarrel with the *idea* of open borders. Indeed, from a purely libertarian NAP-type perspective, they are preferable. *HOWEVER*, governments are so skilled at abusing people’s property rights, and people are so smart at finding clever solutions to the problems in their lives, that the (dare I say it?) collusion between the welfare state and open immigration policy has created a monster.
I can appreciate the moral argument of open borders and the argument that the welfare state and open immigration are independent so it shouldn’t, as a matter of principle, matter which issue we attack first. As a practical matter, opening immigration first creates a perverse incentive that almost precludes ever doing away with the welfare state. You can see this in action right now in Western Europe where demographics have changed so rapidly that the political landscape is experiencing a sea change. So, I see no problem with prioritizing the destruction of the welfare state and property rights abuse first.
As an aside, in practical reality, there are foreign entities (states or individuals) that would initiate aggression against other states and individuals. As long as we’re stuck with the state for now, borders, and the control over them, should serve as a way to mitigate some of this risk.
I have no quarrel with the *idea* of open borders. – as long as politics do not prevent you from shooting a fucker groping your daughter
I like the cut of your jib, sir.
No homo.
She should be able to shoot the groper herself.
My first opposition is as a nationalist.
My second opposition is a pragmatic one regarding the problems letting anyone in the world enter will cause.
My third opposition is of the principle that these people should be trying to improve their homes (though I admit this may not be practical, that’s why it’s third).
It’s easier to abandon the shithole and recreate the same conditions elsewhere. Ask the blue state douches that leave because their blue home states have become dysfunctional and then advocate for the same policies that destroyed their blue home states where they moved to, all to avoid the blue state miasma they ran away from. Double that for people leaving bad countries. Multiculturalism is evil. What you want is people that come over and accept your values. Not people that come here to turn your country into a mirror marxist shithole like they ran away from in the first place…
I don’t know. I don’t think open borders are preferable from either a NAP or libertarian viewpoint. It’s just one of many possible approaches.
Let’s say that 10,000 libertarians got together, formed their own country, and made one of the founding rules that only immigrants who also believed in limited government would be allowed in. It would take a very long time for 10k libertarians to agree on what to eat for lunch, let alone the founding constitution, but let’s roll with it. I fail to see how that’s any less libertarian or NAP than if the same 10,000 people got together and formed a country that allowed open borders, or a hippie commune, or a theocracy.
I would say that just as no one has a fundamental right to enter another person’s home, a non-citizen does not have a fundamental right to enter another country. Of course a country can be free to allow in anybody they would like, just as I can invite anybody I’d like into my home. And above all, such persons are free to leave at anytime without restraint (positive vs. negative rights).
Exactly. Borders are respected as property of the Sovereign which, if formed by the people, may have the Right and powers to defend and control assigned therefrom during formation. If you accept that individuals can assign rights in property you can quickly derive Wesphalianism as the system of property between Sovereigns.
If you accept that individuals can assign rights in property you can quickly derive Wesphalianism as the system of property between Sovereigns.
If you handwave away the question of consent, I suppose. Never mind kings and other rulers by might, democratic governments never have the support of everyone.
Every chain of title has a root, an original owner who did not obtain title from someone else. Most real property, at least, was originally the property of the sovereign. In fee title countries, like the US, the sovereign retains a residual claim on every single millimeter of property. You agreed to that claim when you bought your property.
I understand that there are alternative real property systems (alluvial is one) where this isn’t the case, but that’s not the system we have. I’m not sure who does have a real property system that doesn’t have the residual rights in the sovereign.
Alloidal.
Correction accepted. “Alluvial” title would be ownership based on . . . proximity to a river? I dunno.
You agreed to that claim when you bought your property.
Just like the social contract?
Less glibly, the sovereign governs by force. That property was not assigned by me to the sovereign, it was assumed by the sovereign with my concerns being no part of it. The sovereign promises to me the retention of certain rights, but his ultimate authority and ownership is not predicated on that promise being maintained.
Put another way, Westphalian sovereignty can only be “derived” from individual rights if you strip some of those rights away. This is an age-old issue, to be sure, and it is the principle arguing point between anarchists and minarchists/statists, but it’s still there.
Just like the social contract?
Nope. You had the option to not consent, by not buying the property.
That property was not assigned by me to the sovereign, it was assumed by the sovereign with my concerns being no part of it.
It wasn’t assigned by you to the sovereign because it was reserved by the sovereign way back in the chain of title. Kind of like an easement a prior owner granted (or withheld for themselves).
The sovereign’s claim is not rooted in anyone’s consent; classically, it was obtained through conquest. So, yes, there is a moral flaw in the sovereign’s claim. I’m not saying fee title and residual sovereign rights are a good thing, only that they are a fact.
Yes, well, I thought we were arguing theoretical underpinnings.
I’m going to reply at this level in sum to the above debate which ignores the a central point, that of formation. People existed prior to government and, ab initio, consented to be governed and to the form of government. There is no hand-waving of consent. What I gather is that there is difficulty for those who came after, having had no input in the formation of government that they are ‘born’ into. There begins an analysis of the form of Government itself but I’ll not drill into that right now although kbolino raises the issue of whether the Sovreign’s use of force is lawful. To those individuals dissatisfied with the form, there exists whatever arbitrary Governmental means for change, the vote with the feet, or the appeal to heaven all of which are consistent with the NAP.
“People existed prior to government”
People may have existed before any current government, but human society co evolved with human biology, and society has always had government elements in it. Coercive government has always existed. The “state of nature” is a useful tool for moral analysis, not for historical analysis. Its an allegory, no more real that The Cave.
“If people were to come together from a state of nature and form a society, what rights would they cede to the government” is a useful inquiry.
“When people came together out of a state of nature to form a society, what rights did they cede to the government” is not a useful inquiry.
The later inquiry is eminently useful if you are interested in discovering whether a government is ‘good’ which is a question of moral analysis and I presume of primary concern if you’re object is to affect a more libertarian form of government. The former is only useful if you are trying to predict a particular instance of government given an underlying set of people. I’m not seeing ‘historical’ analysis here, whatever that might be.
Also I find US immigration rather silly with shit like H1B visas. Those things sound awful to me. Better to just allow a number per year and give em green cards. It is better for the immigrants and for americans that immigrants are not tied to a visa. They can be full members of society and have more connection to the country.
The whole system is very broken. But it has been so politicized that it’s impossible to have an honest debate and create sensible policies.
That is the feature the political class profits from loves…
That is the “Green Card Lottery”, which I think is still operative. The problem is that the allocation model is ridiculous. Ireland is (was?) allocated about 4 times as many per year as the UK.
Now, there are a number of visa classifications which make reasonable sense, although they could simplify them. My original visa to the US was an L-1, on the basis of me having “technical, management and/or organizational” abilities which my company was unlikely to be able to find within the US workforce – what I consider to be a reasonable ‘honest’ justification for issuance.
The H-1B’s are really just a license to take an individual into indentured servitude.
In theory, both H1B and family visas have a benefit in that the person already starts out with a connection. However, the one allows too much influence without any responsibility for employers (and represents a standing threat to their employees), and the other leads to chain migration which undermines assimilation and community ties between immigrants and the larger population.
It would make sense to account for likelihood of connections in a point-based system, maybe weighting family connections by both closeness of relationship, and the years of residency on the US side of the relationship.
https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/963810210019201029
When did Milo become the equivalent of Richard Spencer? And can Balko get any more terrible?
WaPo will do that to people.
Oh Radley, you utter shitstain, you.
I hate to be a “what have you done for me lately?” kind of guy, but I really don’t have much use for Balko anymore. He just plain sucks.
Balko lost his mind due to TDS. It is sad actually.
I thought it was obvious even back in the day, but he covered enough “good” stuff to get away with it.
Inside every Reason writer there’s a prog trying to get out
They’re all little Trumps, orange on the outside, totalitarian on the inside.
“And if you do invite them, you aren’t making an edgy statement about free speech. You’re just an asshole.” – I wonder if he has the same standard for communists, socialists, radical feminists and all the lovely intersectional “ll all men” “kill all whites” left If not the Balko is the asshole.
Obviously he is not going to make the same comparison. Balko is garbage
Hey, I already posted that story in the links thread about an hour ago! narrows gaze
Feel our pain.
*rolls eyes*
Once again, the comments are carcinogenic. They pretty much boil down to:
1. Nazis killed people in the 30s and 40s
2. Anyone I disagree with is a Nazi
3. Therefore, violence against people I disagree with is justified
QED.
PS: This kind of “logic” is how Sweden turns into a violent, lawless shithole.
I like the tranny saying they’re being killed in mass. Where? I’ve never seen more than a handful of trannies together and when I did see them, nobody was bothering them.
Are you denying their died experiences?
Yes, until I get some evidence.
How many Nazis were punched at the Nuremberg trials?
Those were actual Holocaust commiting Nazis, and I bet not a single one was punched. Hung after a trial, yes. Punched, no.
If I can round up 6 million democrats for reeducation and I all get is a punching after the war maybe AntiFa ain’t so bad.
The retweets are a trash fire.
Idiots blaming antifa violence on Milo, etc. etc.
You made me do it woman!
Come on in, Pie. We’d be glad to have you.
We can discuss chain-migrating in all the hot “relatives” in your “family”…bring blondes
mostly brunettes in Romania I’m afraid. More brown than black. Few blondes even fewer redheads.
Not even a token redhead you can bring me? (mut meet all standard appearance and personality requirements)
*must meet all
Oh there are a few … I just am not acquainted with any. Also our redheads don’t have many freckles like quality redheads.
Dammit.
I need to go a Viking to Ireland I guess.
Brunettes > blondes
This is known.
Yeah, I’d be happy to have all of Pie’s hot family members — apple pie, blueberry pie….
Apple Pie’s ‘murican, not Romanian
Seconded.
So, last night I watched the end of the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. A couple of thoughts:
1. The winner, Flynn, was a bichon frise. Not the sort of dog I’d want for myself. But, he really did seem to have a great personality. And you could see that, for what it was, it was a great specimen.
2. None of the dogs felt the need to take a knee during the national anthem.
3. I’ll never agree with the “dogs are better than people” crap. But, I can say animal athletes skip all the bullshit you find with human athletes.
4. There really wasn’t a competitor there that I wouldn’t love to have. Okay, a couple. But for the most part, what a beautiful bunch of dogs.
5. And speaking of those couple of dogs, why on earth did anyone ever think it was a good idea to breed dogs with corded hair?
6. This struck me as a marketers dream. I swear, I never thought I’d live to see lifestyle advertising for pet food. And it was awesome advertising, the older breeder dressed like a country squire walking with his pack of dogs by a lakeside talking about the type of dogfood he buys.
I think a fair comment is “dogs are better than SOME people”
Rufus speaking of Canadia, what is the deal with one of your provinces boycotting wine from another due to some pipeline? Sounds silly
What do you expect from a nation of flappy headed puppets?
*puts Florida Man at the top of the Muppet shit list*
Oh no! Will I not be allowed to buy Canadian wine now? Guess I’ll have to fall back on Californian, Italian, French, Spanish, German, Argentinian, Australian, New Zealand, etc wine.
*guzzles some Boones farm*
What’s this about flappy headed puppets?
I believe there are inter-state trade barriers too.
The boycott wars isn’t restricted to Canada. See North Carolina and California over transgender bathrooms.
We’re in this retard alert TOGETHER.
I think trade restrictions are what the commerce clause is supposed to curtail.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
you’re funny.
I think trade restrictions are what the commerce clause is supposed to curtail.
If I was in Congress, I would push this line, hard. California, you do not get to force products made outside of your state to display a warning label that they cause cancer. No state should in any way be allowed to restrict the sale of something lawfully manufactured elsewhere unless Congress has first explicitly approved said restriction. And likewise, Congress should have no power to restrict or prevent restriction of any production within any single state, but is free to proscribe the exportation of such. “Interstate commerce” should mean interstate commerce.
Not buying is theft?
Canadians are fucken retards. Especially this guy:
I’m no fan of Alberta but we need pipelines, moving oil by train is worse.
“Everyone is moving away from oil as much as they can in Europe, US & Canada are lagging a bit behind but we still need petroleum for so many products lets move it safer by pipeline. Look at the plastic in the oceans why are people using straws or 1 time plastic bottles? If people at all cared about the environment they would stop now but they don’t. I’ve been using a reusable canteen forever drinking free tasty tap water (get a water filter if you don’t like the taste).
If you drink from plastic bottles you have no moral superiority over Albertan’s, go look at what it’s doing to our ocean, landfills. People are so hypocritical, I remember how liberal my college was and the marketing teach stuck it to everyone with a $2.00 water on their desks. you don’t get to call yourself environmentalist and pay $2.00 for a bottle of water shipped by an 18 wheeler, when there is a fountain for free stuff right down the hall!”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/wine-boycott-alberta-british-columbia-trans-mountain-1.4523473
His comment starts at ‘I’m no fan of Alberta…’
Who’s a fan of provinces or states anyway?
*takes down wife’s “I heart Texas” picture on the wall*
The Party Quebecois?
Okay, okay. I was just being a ball buster.
everyone is moving away from oil as much as they can in Europe, – well seeing the winter temperatures in Canada moving away from oil seems a bit suicidal to me. Then again in Romania heating is oil and natural gas, maybe in Canada is something else, wood, solar, unicorn farts. But a norther country in winter does not get that much sun and maybe it is windy but on cold days I assume there can be no wind. SO what do you do at night and many degrees bellow 0 without oil?
Outbreed Europeans.
Not only that, Canadians still don’t seem to grasp we have a semi-diversified economy and can’t really afford to be retards when it comes to our resources. As far as I’m concerned, any politician or person who opposes us developing our natural resources are irresponsible. Canada is a country that lives in a unicorn world. We’re rich in resources but don’t manufacture our own equipment to develop relying on American (usually) capital and then squawk about everything that doesn’t go our way. Then they wonder why no one generally take us seriously. I don’t take us seriously!
The Americans (who blew a 2-0 lead to….Slovenia today. Did I mention this?), can afford to dick around and play political games because other segments of their economy can pick up the slack in the meantime until they do the inevitable and start their own development.
We can fix this.
Annex canadia. Current canadians can apply for nationalization as americans when they demonstrate sufficient strict constitutionalism.
The EPA jurisdiction is reduced to the footprint of its headquarters in DC.
See below
I have no objection to hemspheric hegemony, but I do want to take precautions against going down the road to socialist hellhole status.
It looks like our Commies picked a fight with Alberta Commies to please their idiot base (the less idiot base is actual working class, fishermen, lumberjacks and such), the Natives and, crucially, their idiot Green coalition partners (the Commies have a minority govt. propped by ecoloons).
They fucked over the ecoloons by proceeding with construction of a hydro-power dam in the Interior (because our ecoloons HATE hydroelectric powers – unlike places where ecoloons LOVE it, up here it’s actually viable, profitable and well-established, so it must be destroyed), and their budget is coming up soon. They had a Throne Speech big on promises, except everything in it is small and petty so the budget might be far less spendy than idiot base would like. So why not throw some red meat out to morons?
At some point you have to let the ecoloon morons go. Ignore them. Easier said than done perhaps but we have to start somewhere!
Well, since people are going OT here instead of going back to the morning links, here’s a story for all you lovebirds that haven’t yet been married. https://mobile.twitter.com/panerabread/status/963782460961099777
Panera. Yuck.
I haven’t had a negative food experience at Panera yet. You sure pay a price premium for upscale fast food though.
If I ever get married it won’t be the catering bill I’d be worried about. Wisconsin folk of German and Polish stock at an event with an open bar is where all the money goes around here.
We circumvented that issue by getting booze from Sam’s club. Only beer and wine, but enough that we were drinking the excess for a year after we got married. It was less than 1/3 the price of an open bar.
Calculate your taxes before you get government married; that’s my advice.
If you make roughly the same as one another, you get a marriage penalty. If one makes significantly more than the other, you get a marriage benefit.
woke.
https://twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/963230038886944768
…and demonstrably false.
She just likes BASE jumping without a chute.
That guy has to be doing parody, because nobody can be that invincibly ignorant and stupid.
The Count is an epic edgelord, and he has whole regiments of devoted followers who find this stuff for him.
As you might even know, he turned his girlfriend’s dog into a Nazi.
what guy? The titter account? He does parody he is the guy risking jail in UK for teaching his girlfriends pug to do a Nazi salute
That’s hilarious. Except for the jail part.
Of course Allah loves equality, hence the demand for followers of the true faith to equalize the world under the Caliph.
Kill the welfare state and we can have open borders.
This simple trick solves the immigration problem without harming anyone. It’s easy.
I opened my borders with this one weird trick!
You surrendered to the EU and had migrants in your “personal space”?
It has the benefit of kicking Americans off welfare too, which I support.
Yes. I want to see fake disabled Americans kicked off the dole and live hanging turkeys at the Tyson plant.
Welfare parasites and their politicians disagree.
Eliminate the welfare state and spend 10% of the money saved on border security.
also keep gun rights for self defense. important and again European values. I iz not USistani dontcha remember
Is there a Romanian version of the NRA. Is there enough Romanians who actually want gun rights to be able to affect policy?
no and no. Everyone and I mean every single person I know thinks I am crazy because I don’t want guns fully banned. Even economically libertarian Romanians think the one good thing Europe has done is ban guns.
Short memories, your compatriots have.
That’s unfortunate.
It wouldn’t matter, as part of the European Union Romania has to have the following regulations in place as a bare minimum:
That’s even more unfortunate.
I think I’m going to go shoot my AR this afternoon in celebration that the US is not part of the EU.
Where is my shocked face that the EU is constitutionally opposed to civilian gun ownership? Bow before you masters, peasants, and be glad that they only ask so much of you.
Good thing these rules prevented the Bataclan shooters from obtaining a full auto AK.
Fear not, they’ve appointed new Top Men who will crack down even harder on law-abiding citizens, so that the next time this happens, there will be an even smaller chance that somebody can shoot back.
We don’t need more immigration. We need more conquest.
Annexation of Mexico would solve a lot of problems.
No, then we’d have all the cartelmen on this side of the border.
‘Carlelmen’?
I’ll have you know that in Libertopia, the proper name is ‘irregular capitalist‘.
With the number of corpses they’ve grown accustomed to making, I’m not inviting towards them.
Manifest Destiny: From sea to sea, from Boffin Bay to Tierra del Fuego.
Ugh, cleaning out the socialists will take a lot of helicopters.
You can always depend on paying half the poor to kill the other half of the poor or something like that.
Yes, I made this proposal at TOS several years ago.
I first made it in the late 80s, I think.
great minds think alike
At least down to canal.
I mean we already have an anthem for a campaign to annex down to the canal.
Baffin Bay, but I guess everyone knew what I meant.
I figured it was that nice little whore house in Labrador, the Boffin’ Bay.
I think there is a freedom of association angle to having limited immigration. I haven’t thought it all the way through yet, but in rough terms, every organization should be able to determine who its members are. Its inherent in freedom of association that you have the freedom to not associate, after all.
I think its fairly uncontroversial that nations should be able to determine who their citizens are (although we can certainly argue about how they make this determination). I don’t see much difference, really, in saying that nations should also be able to determine who their residents are. I have a hard time seeing how you can have any kind of nation-state that doesn’t determine who its citizens (and I think also residents) are.
That’s because a nation is an association. Its a more or less overt association of its citizens, but I think its also an association of all of its residents, citizen or not.
Now, the open borders response is likely to be that the nation asserting its right/power to determine who its residents are conflicts with the individual’s right to associate with whoever he wants. However, another way to look at this is that denying the nation’s right/power to determine who its residents are is a denial of the freedom of association of the citizens of that nation. The club/nation/association has the inherent right, in the exercise of its freedom of association, to exclude potential members.
Maybe the place to draw the line is at citizenship, and say that the nation exercises its freedom of association only in determining who its members are. This would leave some freedom of association rights to the citizens of the nation, and freedom of association rights to individuals who want to associate with foreigners.
But almost nobody really believes that every single person, no matter how diseased, criminal or otherwise unsuitable to be a resident of a nation, should be allowed in – no border checkpoints at all. So the pure open borders based on freedom of association isn’t a position that many people actually hold. Nearly everyone admits of some need to screen undesirables (however defined) from crossing the border and becoming a member of their community (however defined). So even the balancing that would say only citizenship can be limited by the state doesn’t really line up with what most people actually say they want. Most people seem to be in line with the idea that excluding some people from residency (which can be justified as an exercise of freedom of association) is also a good idea.
The residents of a nation have just as much freedom of association/disassociation as the would-be migrant – no less, and perhaps a little more.
A society that doesn’t want specific ideologies to be incorporated within it certainly has the right (and maybe the obligation) to object to migration of people who adhere to that ideology.
The problem is, of course, that society has to enact its objections via the state, or via ad-hoc mechanisms which the state will take exception to.
The problem is, of course, that society has to enact its objections via the state, or via ad-hoc mechanisms which the state will take exception to.
If anyone joins an association (a club or even a nation), they are now associated with everyone else in the association. Associations usually have rules and a process for who can join – being a member means you have surrendered/delegated the decision on this to the association. Because associations are inherently a collective, freedom of association may be a right that isn’t purely an individual right, but a collective right at least in part or in some contexts. The rules and process for membership are how the collective exercises its freedom of association.
The citizenship/residency distinction could map onto the state/society distinction. But as I noted, most people also want the collective to determine who gets to be a resident. And I think there is some basis for this. It is very difficult to be completely disassociated from an unassimilated group of foreigners in your community – they live there and affect the community as a whole to some degree. Residency carries a penumbra(?) of association with other people in the community with it.
Of course, saying that the collective has an absolute right to exclude anyone can also leads to some very unpleasant results. There are a lot of competing rights at play here, some of them collective. I don’t think there is a simple answer, just one that is less bad than the others.
“Maybe the place to draw the line is at citizenship, and say that the nation exercises its freedom of association only in determining who its members are. This would leave some freedom of association rights to the citizens of the nation, and freedom of association rights to individuals who want to associate with foreigners.”
That sorta sounds good, but if you allow entry without citizenship, then you end up with something akin to what we have now. A class of people who end up working under the table at below minimum wage. In theory, I don’t care if that’s what they want to do. In practice that just further exacerbates the welfare state. You end up with able bodied Americans not doing jobs that need to be done and filling up the welfare rolls instead.
What’s funny is, the Constitution itself seems to draw the line at citizenship.
If the government would just stick to doing things authorized in the constitution, then most of all this would be a moot point. I don’t see anywhere in the constitution an authorization for massive wealth redistribution programs.
There is, however, nothing that prevents it from spending tax revenues in redistributionist ways.
To an extent, yes. In relation to doing the things the con authorizes, the government has to collect taxes and then spend them on people and material to accomplish it’s goals. The enormous SS/medicare/medicade scams don’t look to me to be authorized by the constitution.
General welfare clause FTW
The general welfare clause is actually a limitation on the government’s spending powers; it can only spend on things that benefit the general welfare. Redistribution does not; it is an expenditure for the specific welfare of a few at the expense of others. At least some of the Founders were pretty clear that charity was not a legitimate object of government spending.
I think they get away with it because eligibility for welfare benefits is not limited by geography, heritage, or other individualizing/localizing factors. Any person who meets conditions X, Y, and Z is eligible.
I don’t think the founding fathers (except, perhaps, Hamilton) ever envisioned direct transfer payments. But they also expressly forbade income taxes. Once the 16th Amendment was passed, redistribution was practically guaranteed.
Eventually they’ll just create a reservation for the few remaining “problem libertarians”. Probably somewhere near the salt flats.
That seems a little too “social contract” to me.
When did I sign the association papers?
Via footprint when you were born. Duh.
The exercise of your freedom of association to associate or not just happens wherever there are two or more people; no paperwork required.
What’s your bone to pick with a social contract model for formation? As far as I can tell it is the only principled way to form a government if you are applying the NAP.
I don’t know about robc, but my bones to pick are thus:
1. I didn’t agree to it, at best one of my forebears did, but I am not the same person as he or she. Continuing to live here does not constitute my being a signatory to such an agreement, as my rights derive from a higher authority than it.
2. More practically, the reciprocal obligations are thoroughly debased. The government’s obligations to me (respect for my rights) are eroded all the time but I have limited recourse. Yet, the contract still claims to bind me. “I’ve altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it further.”
So even if I said, the Constitution is awesome, I totally agree to it, while the government is smiling at me with one hand extended, it has the other one behind its back with its fingers crossed.
That is good enough for me too.
Oh ok, so you don’t have an issue with social contract theory itself as a method of formation. You have an issue with the terms and whether you consent to be bound. Much like yourself, I am not thrilled with the current terms. However, if you’re familiar with contractual common law you should also be familiar with the doctrine of acceptance by performance – in point of fact continuing to live ‘here’ (presuming the U.S.) does constitute acceptance, your signature is not required.
acceptance by performance
But the government isn’t performing. In general, when one party does not uphold its side of the contract, it cannot enforce the terms of that contract against the other party.
I’m not saying the government isn’t in breach and we shouldn’t be looking for redress but whether there was a breach is a question of fact while redress is a question of Law. Furthermore, continued performance by the non-breaching party may excuse the counter-party breach. To whom may we appeal for redress and still comply with the NAP?
To whom may we appeal for redress and still comply with the NAP?
God, the government itself, and/or the voters.
… effectiveness not guaranteed
The term ‘social contract’ is used in a way that I strongly disagree with. Typically its user is saying that by your mere existence you owe something to everyone else. It is a contract one cannot get out of and is very open ended. It amounts to a yoke.
Formation of government, at least here in this country, was done by contract. We have an agreement wherein the people agree to be governed under certain conditions and limitations on the power of government. The people can dissolve the government and form another at will. The government can be kept on a leash. At least in theory. Most in the government dont seem to understand, acknowledge or care for this very much, but it is there in theory.
I use it as Locke described it. Which is generally how you describe things as they were done at the Revolution.
“But almost nobody really believes that every single person, no matter how diseased, criminal or otherwise unsuitable to be a resident of a nation, should be allowed in”
That depends, who will they vote for?
/Dem
https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/963840967303450630
This is a good point. While in principle, I oppose all affirmative action programs, I think that the argument for affirmative action for Native Americans and African Americans is much stronger and compelling than it is for women or Hispanics.
I fully expect to be called a cosmo for this position
Oh, you cosmo you.
I recommend adding a caveat “And even the argument for affirmative action for Native Americans and African Americans is fatally flawed both philosophically and empirically.”
Have you read “Mismatch”? It makes a compelling argument that Affirmative Action is more harmful to its “Beneficiaries” than it is helpful.
I don’t doubt it. I’m only saying that the argument for affirmative action for these groups is much stronger than it is for other groups. I am not endorsing the notion that affirmative action is beneficial to the recipients, only that the argument in favor of it is sound.
If you try to correct past disparities by continuing to hamstring the best and brightest of a demographic, I don’t see how that can possibly be seen as sane. Which makes the asserted arguments moot.
You’re looking at the validity of an argument based upon its results. I judge the validity of an argument on its merits alone.
I don’t see how the results of an action and the merits of the argument backing that action are separable. If your abstract reasoning does not match what actually happens then your premises are flawed and your argument thus has no bearing on reality.
Are you for real right now?
Ok, how about this one: allowing unfettered free speech allows for people who are diametrically opposed to free speech and individual rights in general to espouse their illiberal principles. Does that mean that the negative effect of free speech undercuts the validity of the argument behind having uninhibited free speech?
You can argue that something is good based around utilitarian principles or deontological principles. I don’t think the end results undermine the validity of an initial argument. I don’t oppose welfare because it is not beneficial, in the long run, for its recipients. That’s a secondary argument for me. My central opposition to welfare is that it is immoral to take the wealth of one person and forcibly redistribute it to another person.
The inherent principle of affirmative action for Native Americans and African Americans can be viewed as reparations for government abuse that occurred in the past. No other ethnic, racial, or sex group has ever experienced systemic persecution by state authorities like Native American and African American people in the past. That’s the principle. It’s fucking sound
Does that mean that the negative effect of free speech undercuts the validity of the argument behind having uninhibited free speech?
No, but I don’t hold that free speech begets universal love for free speech.
The inherent principle of affirmative action for Native Americans and African Americans can be viewed as reparations for government abuse that occurred in the past.
Narrowly framed like that, then sure you can make the claim that the argument stands or falls “on its own merits”, other factors (like socioeconomic outcomes) being irrelevant. Posed like that, the only metric of success is the thing itself (either you did or did not give preference, you did or did not alter the percentages, you did or did not employ so many people, etc.).
But most people do not frame the issue narrowly like that. They connect it back to other social factors or outcomes. And that opens up other metrics to evaluate it by. if the claim being evaluated is, “affirmative action will lead to improvement in other socioeconomic indicators” which in one form or another is very often the claim, then falling back on “but it’s just about historical injustice” looks like a motte and bailey bait and switch.
Um, what?
That’s tallest midget stuff. Judge people by merit or not at all.
What is the argument for affirmative action for Indians? I don’t believe you can get to a color(and include ethnicity, sex, etc) blind society so long as there’s different standards and treatment based on that.
I’d like to see ending recognition of those racist pseudo governments called tribes as long as they continue to discriminate on the basis of blood and nonsensical heredity. Be a private membership organization then. Oh wait, freedom of association was torched too. Too bad.
i agree.
its probably the only ‘victim group’ in america which genuinely deserves some leg-up.
there’s also the fact they are the group that begs for it the least
Principal Groups not Principles?
OT: Funniest things seen on resumes as told by a recruitment company.
Cover Letter
• “I have something up my sleeve for you – it’s called inspiration.”
Personal Profile
•“I hate my job.”
• “Current Salary: $28,000. Desired Salary: $170,000.”
• “If I told you, I’d have to kill you.”
• “Desired Position: Profreader.”
• “Martial Status: Celibate.”
• “Email: ilostmybabies@yahoo.com”
Key Achievements
• “Being sober”
• “Divorcing my wife.”
• “Starred in a pornographic film.”
Reason for Leaving
• “They insisted that all staff get to work by 8:45 every morning. Couldn’t work under those conditions.”
• “Responsibility makes me nervous.”
• “I din’t give the company my full effort and received no chance of carer advancement in return.”
Key Skills
• “Quick lerner, good at mats amd speling.”
Education & Qualifications
• “Who needs educasion these days? I learnt everything I know from the world and tv.”
Hobbies & Interests
• “I have 14 cats”
I have a question for Pie…and other furriners too. Yeah, I am looking at you Canadians, Brits and Aussies.
I dont know what freedom of speech means in your home countries but I know it doesnt mean the same thing there that it means here in the States. Do you worry that the things you say here may get you in trouble at home? Do you temper your opinions or find yourself hesitant to say certain things here on this site?
Don’t worry Suthen, our benevolent prog overlords are working tirelessly to make our laws as “civilized” as those other places; just ask Brendan Eich.
Do you worry that the things you say here may get you in trouble at home?- not one bit. If I were to temper myself would be if I though it would get people on the blog less interested in reading my stuff.
While in Romania free speech in the constitution has the usual European bullshit of as long as it is not detrimental to public mores – public mores which are undefined and as such meaningless, Romania is not yet affected with the PC hate speech bullshit of western Europe. I have 0 fear of getting the cops interested in something I say online. You can theoretically get fined for discriminatory speech but mostly if you are a public figure and mauybe say something on national TV and someone hates you and wants to get you fine. Otherwise no worries.
Hitler was a great man and did nothing wrong.
If you ever find yourself in the States Pie, hit me up. I imagine I am not the only one here who wouldn’t mind having a beer with you, offer you a place to stay, sights to see and things to do. And food. Lots of good food.
also you said you would teach me how to fish. Number 6 said he would teach me how to shoot I believe. But if I am ever stateside I will keep that in mind.
You can come and get high if you want.
^ Yeah that’s pretty much all I can offer too.
If you ever feel the urge to bury up an off road vehicle in the mud, you can slip by here.
Yes, fish and shoot. I have a pretty nifty gun collection and lots of land to shoot on.
Suthen’s likely to be able to teach you more about shooting than me, but the offer still stands.
omg we’re all going to jail because of sugarfree
No, being of Libertarian-ish bend merely involves social stigmatization and well-meaning intervention, not legal action. Anything I might be hesitant to say would be far more out of respect for/fear from SP and the Family Friendly certificate up above.
If I were to return to the UK and HMG had access to all of my Internet interactions, I wouldn’t have to worry about being labeled a hate criminal. I mean, I haven’t turned my dog into a Nazi or anything like that. I’ve got no criminal record, and there are no pending legal proceedings against me. I’m not a fugitive from justice.
But I have a nom-de-plume for good reason. I am on HMG’s radar for other historical reasons which encourage me to maintain some level of privacy, and it’s become a bit of a habit now. I have a very low internet profile and I see no reason to elevate it.
It is ridiculously easy (in American terms) to find yourself in a libel or slander case in the UK. Some of the more colorful accusations made on Twitter are libelous by UK legal standards, and if the libeled has sufficiently deep pockets, you can absolutely ‘get into trouble’. There are some opinions one may not voice, such as holocaust denial, which can attract a lot of unwelcome attention. Making a credible threat over an electronic medium such as email will sometimes result in a bunch of plods arriving at your front door. The state has all the tools in place to put some real hurt on anyone who doesn’t know when to keep his yap shut.
I guess, what I’m saying is that if I behaved on the internet the way a lot of people do, I *could* get into trouble on return to England, if I’d upset someone with some political clout.
OT: I just lovvvve getting phone calls from VPs (at another division) asking to work on a project when:
a) their EDI Coordinator is incompetent and couldn’t find her way out of a paper bag
b) this needs to be done yesterday – burning hot! – but they only contacted me today.
c) trying to explain technical concepts to salesmen
Bonus: They asked for my cell number and I said “nah, that’s okay. I don’t give out my cell number to anyone.”
328-7448 (EAT-SHIT)
i burned myself out on this topic already today. I watched John and Tony fighting. Tony was winning. sad!
i said this:
I disagree with the idea that immigration is uncontrollable and the “push” factors in the emigrant country drive things far more than “pull” factors in the immigrant country. It is absolutely true that a border can never be truly “closed”, but such is the case with all laws: every law is violated, but enforcing a law decreases the behavior the law is targeted at. Incentives matter, and if it is highly likely that an illegal immigrant will be deported you will get fewer illegal immigrants.
that’s not what i was saying.
i was saying that ‘controls’ are mostly superficial, don’t have the impact we think they do, and are mostly for political purposes rather than practical ones. the last part of that point being the most important one. If you wanted “real control” you could have it – sort of like the Drug War in the Philippines. We could just shoot people at the border like the East Germans.
my point was that most people’s ‘solutions’ are like the wall: politically pleasing but ultimately meaningless.
that is partly what i was saying. i don’t know how much ‘far more’, but the fact is that many of the reasons why you have the migration is outside of the control of what politicians are capable of influencing by symbolic-gesture.
Razorfist hit on this point when he talked about how our “Immigration” policy is in reality a failure of Foreign Policy. This is one of the key insights which 99% of people simply look past. We think somehow that dealing with half million mexicans crossing the border is somehow entirely a factor of whether we elect the right idiots and those idiots pass ‘new laws’. Its idiotic. The reality is that Mexico itself has far more of a role to play, yet its never even discussed.
*beatnik snapping*
Much to agree with here, but one quibble:
Immigration is simply a fact: we don’t control the ebb and flow of people who come into the US.
Not in absolute terms, no, but in fact we can do affect and influence this ebb and flow. Without our current border enforcement, I am quite confident we would have many more foreign nationals living in the US. A major driver of immigration is our economic status at any given time; when we are doing well, more people want to come here, and more people actually do (legally and illegally). But how many actually arrive is reduced by our immigration policy and border controls.
“in fact we can do affect and influence this ebb and flow”
inadvertently if at all,
and the things we think influence it are often wrong, and the things that do influence it have costs far higher than the ‘problem’ itself.
see my comment above for more
inadvertently if at all,
I think our current regime is actually accomplishing its intended purpose – reducing immigration, so its not “inadvertent”. Its not reducing it the amount we want (some want it reduced more and other less) or in ways we want, true.
I agree that Mexico and points south being various flavors of shithole is a big factor in the level of immigration from those places. But it would be higher if everyone stumbling across the border or getting off a boat in the US had no legal impairments or consequences whatsoever. Our attempts to reduce immigration are not utterly irrelevant or a total failure.
60% of immigration is people overstaying visas
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/424879/immigration-fighting-last-war-mark-krikorian
“Our attempts to reduce immigration are not utterly irrelevant or a total failure.”
the idea that anything is either ‘perfect’ or an ‘utter failure’ is basically what i’m arguing *against*
if you need an analogy, look at the Drug War. Do “some govt efforts to reduce drug use” have an effect? Sure. DARE has spent billions and claims they’ve reduced teen drug use.
Is it effective and smart use of resources? Fuck no. And far more teens have reduced drug use simply on their own because its not ‘cool’ the way it used to be (i think they’re pussies, honestly)
if you wanted to ‘get smart’ about immigration and reduce the bad-parts of it, actual policy would be wildly different than what is actually proposed.
What is actually proposed – ‘walls’, ‘DACA’, etc. – is a bunch of pointless meaningless horseshit.
I think we’re down to semantics:
inadvertently if at all, is within spitting distance of “utterly irrelevant or a total failure”, IMO.
Do “some govt efforts to reduce drug use” have an effect? Sure.
or
Is it effective and smart use of resources? Fuck no.
Pick one. 🙂
/Pedantic asshole OFF
Why? i’m having trouble seeing why the consistency of my point isn’t clear to you. Assuming its me.
Im very clearly stating,
“yes, control is possible – but they’re not worth it, and no one will ever implement real controls anyway because they’re politically impalatable”
e.g. John in TOS is demanding the govt go after employers to demand they ensure they only hire REAL AMERICAN citizens
would – if that were implmented – work? yes, in theory
would it ever actually be implmented? maybe for 30 seconds before every politician who enacted that law lost their jobs from the enormous backlash from employers. not because they employ illegals, but because of the costs and risks added to their business.
this isn’t that complicated
additional to that point –
even if you implemented these draconian measures… the actual impact they’d have on the “problem” would be less than the changes which occur naturally due to changing incentives farther down the food chain.
e.g. at the source, rather than the destination.
the one-sided view people take on immigration, as tho enforcement is the only way it can be approached, is idiotic.
Watch razorfists video on the wall ; i don’t agree with all his points, but he’s taking an angle which is actually far more insightful than 99% of the media/public/pols
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOOBlcOIcLs&t=24s
I’m mostly just yanking your chain, but this just caught my eye:
Do “some govt efforts to reduce drug use” have an effect? Sure.
Is it effective and smart use of resources? Fuck no.
Do government efforts to reduce drug use have an effect, or are they not effective?
I grant there is a nuance between “having an effect” and “being effective”, as the latter usually implies something more than just “an” effect.
We are in violent agreement, I think, that government affects outcomes on major issues more at the margins. I’m saying “but there is an effect”, and you’re saying “but its only at the margins”.
I’ve seen Razorfist’s video on the wall, and I think he has a point. Unfortunately, there is no way on earth that we would adopt an immigration policy that would contribute to major reform in Mexico, because no policymaker on either side of the border actually wants major reform in Mexico.
This, I completely agree with.
if you wanted to ‘get smart’ about immigration and reduce the bad-parts of it, actual policy would be wildly different than what is actually proposed.
OT: apparently Nancy McLean has apologized…sort of. I don’t have a link, just a cut-and-paste from a closed blog:
“”I have no problem stating that I regret the analogy I made because it was inaccurate and unfair to those with autism.
I do apologize and just as important, I take your point. It was a long night and rather than take the time to find the right way to express what I wanted to say, I reached for a reference that was inappropriate and just wrong.
You can be sure I will never again speak as I did here—and I will seek deeper knowledge about autism. Thank you for taking the time to write to me
She has apparently apologized and by the next day as I predicted. Please note, as I also predicted the apology, does not imply to the libertarians she smeared. “
What she doesnt get is that being on the autism scale is not grounds for offense, neither is being a libertarian. I read what she had to say and thought “Yeah, so?”
How many aspies on this site offered assistance to others when they were having crisis’ in their lives, got flooded out by hurricanes (if I remember correctly Sloopy was out for days up to his neck in flood waters fishing people and dogs out of disaster – I spent two weeks housing, feeding, re-supplying victims of Katrina and Gustave respectively), came down with illnesses, etc, etc.
How many things like that has Nancy done? Most progs turn their backs and whine for govt to fix it so they dont have to get their hands dirty. I didn’t take offense at what she said because aspie=libertarian, so what?, and her accusations of sociopathy were classical prog projection.
inaccurate and unfair to those with autism
But of course. It’s unfair to compare people with actual medical problems to those monsters that choose to be libertarians.
“Similarly, i would like to apologize to all the retarded people out there who have been unfairly compared to Nancy McLean”
I think the Downs kid who bagged my groceries this weekend has a better grasp on the world than she does.
Guaranteed.
The grocery store I worked at when I was in high school employed a guy with Down’s Syndrome. He has more sense than McLean.
You know what she doesn’t say? This:
the right way to express what I wanted to say,
So what did she mean to say about libertarians? I get why she doesn’t want to say it out loud, because (a) it will be incredibly insulting to libertarians (which is fine), but (b) it will also illuminate what she thinks about autistic people. She’s in a trap now – she can’t insult libertarians without also insulting autistic people.
Thus ever goes Identity Politics.
Breaking: School shooting in Florida.
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Police-Respond-Marjory-Stoneman-Douglas-High-School-Parkland-474078423.html
Love the article on an online sales tax. Ends by claiming states miss out on some $13 billion in “revenue” a year. As opposed to consumers/tax payers saving some $13 billion.